The Fall of France

[rowan]

Good comments, Adder. That's got to be one of the major advantages the Southern Hemisphere holds over Europe. The fact they own the franchises means they can dictate the style of play they want them to adopt. New Zealand, at least, has done this in the past and even influenced selections at times, if I'm not mistaken. Whereas national unions in Europe hold no such sway over their clubs, which also breeds a different kind of attitude and is much more susceptible to the prima donna type.

Do you have a link to that Midi Olympique article? I do actually read French.

[rowan]

Kudos to the Kiwis, of course, on the aplomb with which they have managed rugby in the professional age. I really thought it was going to be the end of them as arguably the leading force in the game within a few decades, but the opposite has turned out to be true. I remember going into the rugby unions during my days as a budding reporter and they'd be staffed by a couple of grouchy old cauliflowered ex-players. Not much fun at all! But with the onset of professionalism the NZRFU and a few of the major provincial associations got rid of the dead-wood and replaced them with generally younger and more skilled staff, invariably with a business background and not necessarily a rugby one at all. Regrettably Wellington was not among them, and the grouchy old cauliflower-eared ex-players remained in office for perhaps another decade to come - much to the detriment of the union & representative team.

[Sandydragon]

Sandy....French clubs scout pretty aggressively.

Of course they do, and it helps their cause then the home country of a player can't match the package on offer. We've had plenty of issues with that in Wales, and we have far stronger financial resources than the PI nations.

[Sandydragon]

Gents,

This is a rugby forum, keep it on topic and do not let this slip into a personal slagging match. I don't care who started it - enough.

[Adder]

Good comments, Adder. That's got to be one of the major advantages the Southern Hemisphere holds over Europe. The fact they own the franchises means they can dictate the style of play they want them to adopt. New Zealand, at least, has done this in the past and even influenced selections at times, if I'm not mistaken. Whereas national unions in Europe hold no such sway over their clubs, which also breeds a different kind of attitude and is much more susceptible to the prima donna type.

Do you have a link to that Midi Olympique article? I do actually read French.

Here you go. The last couple of Paragraphs are the interesting ones.
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/test-matc ... tory.shtml

[rowan]

Yes, the representative structures the Southern Hemisphere nations have in place are undoubtedly a major factor in their success historically as well, providing an important stepping stone from regionalized club competition to the national team, which provided greater depth and must also have been highly beneficial to All Blacks selectors down the ages. I think only Ireland comes close in this respect, though the emphasis appears to have moved more to the clubs themselves than the four major regions in recent times. England did actually set up a provincial structure in the 80s, as I recall, though it failed to catch on with fans simply unable to identify with teams called 'Midlands' and 'London Counties' and whatever the other regions were. France used to field regional teams against touring sides as well. But European sporting culture is always going to be about the clubs and I'm not sure representative teams would ever be successful in that part of the world.

[francoisfou]

I think more than coaching, the French players have got to get used to play a different (slightly less structured way) which is not very easy in the TOP 14. The French National system must be involved in the way teams and players are managed. They should stop expecting them to show up and switch to the next level.
Not saying Noves is the Answer but he is not the main issue.

After a dismal Autumn for France, the FFR and the LNR are now obliged to get their heads together and attempt to resolve the problems with the structure and functioning of the Top14, and the World Cup 2023 is looming on the horizon.

As far as the team coach is concerned, the job's a poisoned chalice. Even the best in the world would be up against it with the current situation.
Guy Novès, who was one of the best club coaches ever, has declared that he'll honour his contract and won't be resigning (for the moment - my words, not his). Good man, Guy. Hang in there!

[Adder]

I also want to point out that japan was very good

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[morepork]

I also want to point out that japan was very good

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Yep. For sure.Fast and well drilled.

[Sandydragon]

I also want to point out that japan was very good

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Yep. For sure.Fast and well drilled.

Good to see that they haven't regressed with a change of coach. They were a pleasure to watch at the last RWC and were the better team against us last year.

[morepork]

Jamie Joseph.

[rowan]

Yes, amazing to think this was the same team that got thrashed by Australia at home a couple of weeks ago, and fairly pummeled by Ireland as well in the summer, whilst labouring to modest victories over Romnia, Hong Kong and Korea earlier in the year. But against France they were suddenly world-beaters again and it's all down to their Kiwi coach.

[francoisfou]

I don't believe anyone has them down as world beaters - at least, not just yet.
They are however, an attractive and positive team to watch, always trying to keep the ball alive, and a team with a good future even though their playing resources are limited. Good luck to them!

[rowan]

Yes, playing resources very limited, only about 6th or 7th in the world with about twice as many as Scotland, 20 K more than both Wales and Italy, 8 times as many as Samoa and 15 times as many as Georgia. Still, they managed to struggle past Romania, Hong Kong and Korea, and although both Australia and Ireland went to Japan and thrashed them, the Blossoms still showed what a great team they are by scraping a draw with mighty France. & it's all down to their Kiwi coach. Yay!

[Adder]

Yes, playing resources very limited, only about 6th or 7th in the world with about twice as many as Scotland, 20 K more than both Wales and Italy, 8 times as many as Samoa and 15 times as many as Georgia. Still, they managed to struggle past Romania, Hong Kong and Korea, and although both Australia and Ireland went to Japan and thrashed them, the Blossoms still showed what a great team they are by scraping a draw with mighty France. & it's all down to their Kiwi coach. Yay!

Did you actually watch the game? Of course they are not in the top 10 for a reason. France would not have got the draw otherwise. But their game plan was amazing and they are going somewhere with it. They clearly targeted this game and they nearly succeeded.

[rowan]

Yes, you're preaching to the converted, guys. Japan, in spite of its very limited playing resources of only 105,000 players or so and one of the game's most lucrative professional leagues, has been outstanding this year, labouring to modest wins over Romania, Hong Kong and Korea, and getting thrashed at home by the Wallabies and Ireland (twice), then scraping a draw against this brilliant French team! The Blossoms are a team on the rise, my friends - and it's all because of their Kiwi coach !!

[morepork]

Fuck me, what a COCK.

[rowan]

Clive Woodward & Jake White mentioned as possible contenders to take over France, along with Raphael Ibanez, Vern Cotter & Frank Azema:

Vern Cotter – Il est très apprécié en France depuis qu’il est passé par Clermont. Il connait aussi le rugby international puisqu’il a été le sélectionneur de l’Ecosse. Cependant, il est actuellement en poste à Montpellier.


Raphaël Ibanez – Ancien capitaine du XV de France, Ibanez est devenu manager de l’UBB. S’il a toujours montré son attachement pour le XV de France, l’ancien talonneur n’a jamais été sélectionneur au niveau international.


Clive Woodward – Il faisait partie des entraîneurs qui auraient aimé succéder à Philippe Saint André en 2015. Depuis la situation du XV de France a empiré. S’il n’a pas entraîné depuis maintenant 2005, Clive Woodward restera a jamais le premier sélectionneur à permettre à une équipe de l’hémisphère nord de gagner la coupe du monde en 2003.


Franck Azema – Le manager de Clermont fait l’unanimité. Personne ne remet en cause ses compétences. Lui qui a succédé à Vern Cotter à la tête de l’ASM prouve qu’il a les capacités de manager un grand club. Suffisant pour arriver à la tête des bleus ? Seul Bernard Laporte le sait.

Jake White – Son passage à Montpellier a clairement ternis son image. Il a pourtant permis à l’Afrique du Sud d’être championne du monde en 2007. Jake White possède une expérience hors norme et pourrait l’apporter au XV de France.
Partager :

http://www.actu-rugby.fr/ces-5-hommes-p ... guy-noves/

[morepork]

Woodbend....no way. He made some noises about the job a couple of years ago, but nobody would take that suggestion seriously. Jake White just wants to sound out his availability for a job....any job.

[rowan]

No magical Kiwi coaches in there to perform miracles - during the AIs . . .

[morepork]

Yeah, because that is precisely the point I was trying to make.....

[rowan]

Oh, sorry, Vern Cotter is a Kiwi.

I wonder if French-speaking is a prerequisite. I'm guessing Clive has his public school boys' French.

[morepork]

Did I promote Cotter over Clive Bellend and Jakey?

[rowan]

I was thinking they'd all coached in France except Clive, which is why I mentioned the likelihood of his having studied the language in school.

[francoisfou]

If Guy Novès goes - be it of his own free will or pushed, his replacement will inherit the same shite house that is the FFR, that Novès was lumbered with when he was appointed, and one of the best coach's (albeit a club coach) reputation will unfairly be in tatters.
The post is a poisoned chalice. However, for the moment, yer man is still there, and I firmly believe he should stay at least until the end of the 6N.
If he, or the powers that be decide that the time has then come, Vern Cotter's got broad enough shoulders to take on the mantle.