More on Syria

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SerjeantWildgoose
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Re: More on Syria

Post by SerjeantWildgoose »

rowan wrote:Republican John Mitchell: ‘How families, when all eaten up and no hope left, took their last look at the sun, built up their cottage doors, that none might see them die or her their groans, and were found weeks afterwards skeletons on their hearths. How every one of those years, ’46, ’47 and ’48, Ireland was exporting to England food to the value of 15 million pounds sterling.’

He accused the British government of deliberately starving the Irish people, of making use of the potato blight to ‘thin out these multitudinous Celts.’ While the potato crop might have failed, there was, Mitchell insisted, still more than enough grain, cereals and live-stock in the country to have fed the population, but it was exported to England.

‘Insane mothers began to eat their young who died of famine before them; and still fleets of ships were sailing with every tide, carrying Irish cattle and corn to England.’


British involvement in the West Indies slave trade is estimated to have killed upward of 2 million - by the most conservative estimates. A manual for slave-owners advocated 'terror' tactics to combat rebellion, with slow-burning a favorite method of execution - ensuring plenty of screaming to traumatize the other slaves.
Rowan!

I presume the John Mitchel (Only 1 l) that you are quoting here is the John Mitchel of Young Ireland who was condemned, transported, escaped to America and became a vocal editorial proponent of the pro-slavery Confederate States of America during the Civil War. A man who wrote that negroes were, "... an innately inferior people," or that slavery was inherently moral, good in itself, and who promoted it for its own sake?

Are the rest of your sources as 'selective' in their opprobrium?

And yes, I know that you will claim that this is argumentum ad hominem, but it serves as a perfectly sound example to show that judging events of two centuries ago by the standards of today can expose very inconvenient contradictions.
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rowan
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Re: More on Syria

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As you say, Sarge, judging events of two centuries ago by today's standards can be problematic. That also applies to attitudes. Regrettably pro-slavery attitudes were so prevalent among Europeans of the age that it is simply unreasonable to condemn any individual (above others) solely on that basis. Here's some other quotes:

Law inspector, Captain Edmond Wynne: ‘Although a man not easily moved, I confess myself unmanned by the extent and intensity of the suffering that I witnessed, more especially among the women and children, crowds of whom were to be seen scattered over the turnip fields, like of flock of famishing crows, devouring raw turnips, mothers half-naked, shivering in the snow and sleet, uttering exclamations of despair, whilst their children were screaming with hunger.’

Irish Nationalist MP, William Smith O’Brien: ‘If there were a rebellion in Ireland tomorrow, they would cheerfully vote 10 or 20 millions to put it down, but what they would do to destroy life, they would not do to save it.’

Lord Palmerston’s biographer: ‘The summer and autumn of 1847 nine ships arrived at Quebec and St John carring a total of two thousand of Palmerston’s tenants from Sligo. The Canadians were shocked at the conditions of the immigrants who arrived in a state of complete destitution. No representative was there to meet them with any assistance, and they were left to be in the snow, barefood and in rags, during their first Canadian winter.’
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SerjeantWildgoose
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Re: More on Syria

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rowan wrote:As you say, Sarge, judging events of two centuries ago by today's standards can be problematic. That also applies to attitudes. Regrettably pro-slavery attitudes were so prevalent among Europeans of the age that it is simply unreasonable to condemn any individual (above others) solely on that basis. Here's some other quotes:

Law inspector, Captain Edmond Wynne: ‘Although a man not easily moved, I confess myself unmanned by the extent and intensity of the suffering that I witnessed, more especially among the women and children, crowds of whom were to be seen scattered over the turnip fields, like of flock of famishing crows, devouring raw turnips, mothers half-naked, shivering in the snow and sleet, uttering exclamations of despair, whilst their children were screaming with hunger.’

Irish Nationalist MP, William Smith O’Brien: ‘If there were a rebellion in Ireland tomorrow, they would cheerfully vote 10 or 20 millions to put it down, but what they would do to destroy life, they would not do to save it.’

Lord Palmerston’s biographer: ‘The summer and autumn of 1847 nine ships arrived at Quebec and St John carring a total of two thousand of Palmerston’s tenants from Sligo. The Canadians were shocked at the conditions of the immigrants who arrived in a state of complete destitution. No representative was there to meet them with any assistance, and they were left to be in the snow, barefood and in rags, during their first Canadian winter.’
Extremely interested by your last from Palmerston's biography. I met Mary McAleese in 1997 at the memorial to those who died aboard the famine ship quarantined off St John New Brunswick.

I have absolutely no problem with any of the quotes you have used in this post and think that Smith O'Brien's sums up well the role played by the authorities in their failure to address the causes and effects of the Great Famine.

Accounts of starvation are harrowing no matter from where they come, but to portray the Irish famines as a deliberate English policy to eliminate the celtic Irish as Mitchel did is simply false. The famines of the 19th Century arose in Ireland as a consequence of the prevailing and almost global economic orthodoxy of laissez faire, rapacious absentee land-owners who reduced the agricultural peasant to a level barely above that of serf whose survival (For which neither the land-owner nor the government cared much) was utterly dependent on a single, highly vulnerable crop (The potato) and the British (English) government's failure to take effective steps to avoid or alleviate either cause or consequence.

These economic policies were not deliberately designed to eradicate the Irish peasant and, while too late and extremely poorly managed, efforts were made by the government to ship Indian corn in to Ireland. At the same time, of the more than 3 million Irish who emigrated as a consequence of the famines, more than half made the relatively short journey to England or to the (British) Army.

Ireland is the only country in Europe whose population today remains below that of the mid-19th Century and this is a direct result of an Gorta Mór and the emigrant hemorrhage that it presaged. The 19th Century famines were an abhorrent consequence of neglect and ineptitude. They are a deserved and lasting stain on England's history, but - and this is an important point of semantics - they were not genocide.
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Re: More on Syria

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Digby wrote:I wonder who the most murderous regimes of the last two centuries would be,the Soviet Union (under Stalin) would be one perhaps with the other being China under Zedong? It's not going to be the UK and the USA even if one doesn't like the imperial past of the UK and their current foreign policies, not even close, it's probably not even Hitler's Third Reich, nor the supposed Commies in North Korea, Cambodia or Ethiopia
While scrolling through the mostly gibberish on this thread, I stumbled across this.

Surely these 2 are only numbers 1 and 2 because of the sheer size of their countries? Perhaps it would be more pertinent to measure murderousness as a %age of population?

We might see a few changes then.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by Digby »

Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:I wonder who the most murderous regimes of the last two centuries would be,the Soviet Union (under Stalin) would be one perhaps with the other being China under Zedong? It's not going to be the UK and the USA even if one doesn't like the imperial past of the UK and their current foreign policies, not even close, it's probably not even Hitler's Third Reich, nor the supposed Commies in North Korea, Cambodia or Ethiopia
While scrolling through the mostly gibberish on this thread, I stumbled across this.

Surely these 2 are only numbers 1 and 2 because of the sheer size of their countries? Perhaps it would be more pertinent to measure murderousness as a %age of population?

We might see a few changes then.
It's not unreasonable to also look at that, but there's only a tiny amount I'd allow a defence of 'I only killed that many as there were so many more left I didn't kill'
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Re: More on Syria

Post by Stom »

Digby wrote:
Stom wrote:
Digby wrote:I wonder who the most murderous regimes of the last two centuries would be,the Soviet Union (under Stalin) would be one perhaps with the other being China under Zedong? It's not going to be the UK and the USA even if one doesn't like the imperial past of the UK and their current foreign policies, not even close, it's probably not even Hitler's Third Reich, nor the supposed Commies in North Korea, Cambodia or Ethiopia
While scrolling through the mostly gibberish on this thread, I stumbled across this.

Surely these 2 are only numbers 1 and 2 because of the sheer size of their countries? Perhaps it would be more pertinent to measure murderousness as a %age of population?

We might see a few changes then.
It's not unreasonable to also look at that, but there's only a tiny amount I'd allow a defence of 'I only killed that many as there were so many more left I didn't kill'
Sure. Just saying it's easier to commit mass genocide when your remote communities number in the millions rather than the thousands.
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SerjeantWildgoose
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Re: More on Syria

Post by SerjeantWildgoose »

‘Mass genocide’ is a bit like ‘very pregnant’; it either is or it isn’t.

Trying to eradicate European Jewry by killing them all is an act of genocide, there is no need to qualify it by adding the adjective.

Trying to eradicate Edinburgh Rugby Supporters is also an act of genocide, but as there are only 30 or 40 of them (And 5 of those are Baz) the adjectival qualification seems not only superfluous, but inappropriate.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by morepork »

That John Mitchel sounds a right cunt.


I can't believe he got the ABs coaching job.
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Re: RE: Re: More on Syria

Post by canta_brian »

morepork wrote:That John Mitchel sounds a right cunt.


I can't believe he got the ABs coaching job.
He made a right cunt of that job too. Didn't pick Merhts in 2003.
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Re: More on Syria

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"Not one person has said they know anyone who is sick, anyone who was attacked, they never smelled anything, they never heard anything, and, right now, there is no evidence whatsoever. So, again, that's not definitive proof, but there's also no proof that it even happened."



https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/ame ... ten-to-him

Meanwhile, it appears that the only ones blocking the inspection are the UN themselves:

The UN Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) continues to prevent chemical inspectors from entering Douma for their investigation, citing safety concerns. They have offered no timetable for when the Organization for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) inspectors will be allowed in.

http://theantimedia.com/un-security-tea ... ors-douma/
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Re: More on Syria

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rowan wrote:"Not one person has said they know anyone who is sick, anyone who was attacked, they never smelled anything, they never heard anything, and, right now, there is no evidence whatsoever. So, again, that's not definitive proof, but there's also no proof that it even happened."



https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/ame ... ten-to-him

Meanwhile, it appears that the only ones blocking the inspection are the UN themselves:

The UN Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) continues to prevent chemical inspectors from entering Douma for their investigation, citing safety concerns. They have offered no timetable for when the Organization for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) inspectors will be allowed in.

http://theantimedia.com/un-security-tea ... ors-douma/
Yeah, strange that. Strange that a column of western reporters can wander around unmolested, but as soon as the U.N. turn up, a mob organises itself and unknown gunmen rattle a few shots off at shadows.
Strange that.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by rowan »

Stones of granite wrote:
rowan wrote:"Not one person has said they know anyone who is sick, anyone who was attacked, they never smelled anything, they never heard anything, and, right now, there is no evidence whatsoever. So, again, that's not definitive proof, but there's also no proof that it even happened."



https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/ame ... ten-to-him

Meanwhile, it appears that the only ones blocking the inspection are the UN themselves:

The UN Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) continues to prevent chemical inspectors from entering Douma for their investigation, citing safety concerns. They have offered no timetable for when the Organization for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) inspectors will be allowed in.

http://theantimedia.com/un-security-tea ... ors-douma/
Yeah, strange that. Strange that a column of western reporters can wander around unmolested, but as soon as the U.N. turn up, a mob organises itself and unknown gunmen rattle a few shots off at shadows.
Strange that.
You've unwittingly made the point. ;)
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Stones of granite
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Re: More on Syria

Post by Stones of granite »

rowan wrote:
Stones of granite wrote:
rowan wrote:"Not one person has said they know anyone who is sick, anyone who was attacked, they never smelled anything, they never heard anything, and, right now, there is no evidence whatsoever. So, again, that's not definitive proof, but there's also no proof that it even happened."



https://steemit.com/news/@emmafiala/ame ... ten-to-him

Meanwhile, it appears that the only ones blocking the inspection are the UN themselves:

The UN Department of Safety and Security (UNDSS) continues to prevent chemical inspectors from entering Douma for their investigation, citing safety concerns. They have offered no timetable for when the Organization for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) inspectors will be allowed in.

http://theantimedia.com/un-security-tea ... ors-douma/
Yeah, strange that. Strange that a column of western reporters can wander around unmolested, but as soon as the U.N. turn up, a mob organises itself and unknown gunmen rattle a few shots off at shadows.
Strange that.
You've unwittingly made the point. ;)
Only if you shut one eye and hold your cock in your hand while thinking about how roughly masculine Putin is.
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rowan
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Re: More on Syria

Post by rowan »

Lavrov is all poise and dignity in this interview with a rather brash BBC journalist:

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Re: More on Syria

Post by Digby »

I don't know anyone was expecting you to really put your cock in one hand and stroke one out whilst admiring the Russian leadership
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Re: More on Syria

Post by kk67 »

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:... it serves as a perfectly sound example to show that judging events of two centuries ago by the standards of today can expose very inconvenient contradictions.
..and some very inconvenient consistencies.

Yet another war somewhere far away against a feudal population stuck in the 17th century and consisting of blokes in dresses who are armed with viciously sharpened guava segments.
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Re: RE: Re: More on Syria

Post by canta_brian »

kk67 wrote:
SerjeantWildgoose wrote:... it serves as a perfectly sound example to show that judging events of two centuries ago by the standards of today can expose very inconvenient contradictions.
..and some very inconvenient consistencies.

Yet another war somewhere far away against a feudal population stuck in the 17th century and consisting of blokes in dresses who are armed with viciously sharpened guava segments.
Well since you started it

If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.


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Re: More on Syria

Post by kk67 »

Don't forget those dirty, Hun spies. Playing their filthy underhand game.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by rowan »

The Lavrov interview is a good one actually. Both he and the BBC interviewer certainly got to present their viewpoints, which in the latter case were pretty much Downing Street's verbatim. But Lavrov was undoubtedly the more composed of the pair. & only wish he had spoken his mind about Boris Johnson's callous Hitler comments toward the end of the interview. You could tell he would've like to have thoroughly trashed the mop-haired one, but provided a diplomatically evasive response instead, to his credit.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by rowan »

The Lavrov interview is a good one actually. Both he and the BBC interviewer certainly got to present their viewpoints, which in the latter case were pretty much Downing Street's verbatim. But Lavrov was undoubtedly the more composed of the pair. & only wish he had spoken his mind about Boris Johnson's callous Hitler comments toward the end of the interview. You could tell he would've like to have thoroughly trashed the mop-haired one, but provided a diplomatically evasive response instead, to his credit.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by Stones of granite »

Lavrov is certainly a polished operator - unfazed at getting caught out in a bare-faced lie about Spiez Lab finding BZ in the Salisbury samples. Mind you, you don’t get to be Sov., er I mean Russian Foreign Minister without tell8ngna few whoppersover the years.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by rowan »

He certainly made some interesting points about the Novichoks, such as America being the first country to patent them. While on the subject of Syria, he correctly points out that America's threat to strike Syria if they used chemical weapons (this just prior to the attack which allegedly occurred), seemed more like an invitation to the terrorists to stage an attack (real or not) even as they were evacuating. America then struck as promised, to punish Syria (trampling over international law in the process), inspiring some of the terrorists to resume the fight. Meanwhile, the UN inspectors were right next door in Lebanon, due to arrive the following day! But really it was no more than a furious beating with a feather duster; designed to make Trump and his allies look strong, but ultimately harmless.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by kk67 »

The West have been treating Syria like a scab they don't want to heal. It's hard not to conclude we have ulterior motives.
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Re: More on Syria

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The UN Department of Safety and Security is continuing to block the OPCW team of investigators from reaching the site of the alleged gas attack, citing "safety concerns,” and has offered no timetable regarding when the inspectors will be allowed into the site. When the UNDSS team visited the sites, they claimed the presence of a large crowd threatened the group’s safety at the first of the two sites, while they reported an explosion near the second site as well as reports of gunfire, though no UN workers were injured.
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Re: More on Syria

Post by kk67 »

No one gives a toss about the UN.
They're tragic corporate apologists at best.
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