Jonah Holmes - anti grannygate check

[Graigwen]

I have been doing this sort of check for years on our players from foreign backgrounds, as the forum is so dead I might as well post them here.

Jonah Holmes is qualified through his late grandmother Rachel Jenkins born 17th November 1917 in Ystradgynlais. It looks as if his forename may have been derived from his great great grandfather Jonah Rees born Bettws, Carmarthenshire in 1874.

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[Son of Mathonwy]

A Welshman through and through.

Still, it's in the rules so why not?

[Graigwen]

I don't mind the grandparent rule, but three years residence is too short.

[Lizard]

A grandparent born in 1917? Jonah was born in 1992. That means his parent and grandparent must have both been mid-late 30s when they had children, which I understand was rare until quite recently. I suppose it could be a paternal grandmother and his dad could have had a younger wife.

Dodgy, I reckon

And what would be the rules of your grandparent was born in one country but the actual location is now a different country? Like Alsace, or Yugoslavia or something.

[Sandydragon]

A grandparent born in 1917? Jonah was born in 1992. That means his parent and grandparent must have both been mid-late 30s when they had children, which I understand was rare until quite recently. I suppose it could be a paternal grandmother and his dad could have had a younger wife.

Dodgy, I reckon

And what would be the rules of your grandparent was born in one country but the actual location is now a different country? Like Alsace, or Yugoslavia or something.

Good question. What about new states or unrecognised states?

[Lizard]

Clause 12 of the Explanatory Guidelines to Regulation 8 have this to say:

What does place of birth mean?
This should be the most straightforward criterion to apply. A Player’s place of birth shall be the country within whose geographical borders he was born. However, difficult scenarios can arise even in relation to this criterion. For example, where a Player was born within the geographical borders of one country, but in a part of that country deemed by the law of the country concerned, to be the sovereign territory of another, or where a Player was born in a military hospital. In such circumstances the matter should be referred to the Regulations Committee for a ruling. The Regulations Committee would need to establish the legal position together with other relevant facts and circumstances. In exceptional circumstances it may be possible for a Player to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of the Regulations Committee, that he is eligible to play for the Union within whose sovereign territory he was born, even though that sovereign territory may be within the geographical borders of another country.

Presumably, if there’s anything complicated about ancestors birthplaces the same applies - ask the Regulations Committee.

[Saison]

A grandparent born in 1917? Jonah was born in 1992. That means his parent and grandparent must have both been mid-late 30s when they had children, which I understand was rare until quite recently. I suppose it could be a paternal grandmother and his dad could have had a younger wife.

Dodgy, I reckon

And what would be the rules of your grandparent was born in one country but the actual location is now a different country? Like Alsace, or Yugoslavia or something.

It's ok. Wales has been Wales for a sufficient period to make this point moot. and who cares about other countries?

[Graigwen]

A grandparent born in 1917? Jonah was born in 1992. That means his parent and grandparent must have both been mid-late 30s when they had children, which I understand was rare until quite recently. I suppose it could be a paternal grandmother and his dad could have had a younger wife.

Dodgy, I reckon

And what would be the rules of your grandparent was born in one country but the actual location is now a different country? Like Alsace, or Yugoslavia or something.

It is the grandmother's generation that introduces the extra years. The descent looks solid but to double check this I contacted last night a cousin of his who has done genealogical research; awaiting a reply. The situation looks like:

Grandmother born 1917
Grandmother marries 1944 (aged 27)
Grandmother has three children 1945 to 1953
Mother born 1959 (grandmother aged 42)

The marriage and childbirth dates/ages for the mother look perfectly normal.

It is easy for descents to drift away from the average, my paternal great grandfather was born in 1823.

Regarding your second point, well we have awarded over 50 caps to the grandson of a man known as "Mad Mike of Trebanos" but who was born a Croation Dragon (or something similar). I guess the grandfather was born in a country called Serbia, which became Yugoslavia and is now Croatia.

I think Sean FitzPatrick is a bit Croatian as well.

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[Sandydragon]

Clause 12 of the Explanatory Guidelines to Regulation 8 have this to say:

What does place of birth mean?
This should be the most straightforward criterion to apply. A Player’s place of birth shall be the country within whose geographical borders he was born. However, difficult scenarios can arise even in relation to this criterion. For example, where a Player was born within the geographical borders of one country, but in a part of that country deemed by the law of the country concerned, to be the sovereign territory of another, or where a Player was born in a military hospital. In such circumstances the matter should be referred to the Regulations Committee for a ruling. The Regulations Committee would need to establish the legal position together with other relevant facts and circumstances. In exceptional circumstances it may be possible for a Player to demonstrate, to the satisfaction of the Regulations Committee, that he is eligible to play for the Union within whose sovereign territory he was born, even though that sovereign territory may be within the geographical borders of another country.

Presumably, if there’s anything complicated about ancestors birthplaces the same applies - ask the Regulations Committee.

I seem to recall that people from the Channel Islands can pick which of the home nations they would wish to represent.