Avengers Endgame - with spoilers

[Puja]

Well, that was fucking brilliant. Anyone else watched it yet?

Puja

[cashead]

Saw it on Wednesday. Best part was when Ant-man climbed into Thanos' butt and then grew into a giant, killing him.

My drive home got delayed by Prince William of all people. Can't say I was expecting that to happen.

[morepork]

Brilliant?

Not sure if serious...

[Puja]

Brilliant?

Not sure if serious...

I enjoyed it a lot. Did you not?

Puja

[cashead]

It certainly made the most of its 3-hour run-time, and I certainly never got bored or restless during it, but there were some things that I take issue with.

SPOILERS

1. The pacing of the first act felt a bit off, as the film felt slightly draggy after Thanos got his head chopped off.
2. The unnecessary reaction shit, like where an OP character comes charging into the big fight, and another character says something like "yeah!" or makes a quip. This, and some jarring musical cues, is the equivalent of a sitcom laugh track.
3. The GIRL SQUAD ASSEMBLE bit. I get what they were going for, but it felt really hamfisted.
4. Fridging Black Widow.
5. Needed more Drax.


Also, Fat Thor was probably the best part of the film.

[Puja]

It certainly made the most of its 3-hour run-time, and I certainly never got bored or restless during it, but there were some things that I take issue with.

SPOILERS

1. The pacing of the first act felt a bit off, as the film felt slightly draggy after Thanos got his head chopped off.
2. The unnecessary reaction shit, like where an OP character comes charging into the big fight, and another character says something like "yeah!" or makes a quip. This, and some jarring musical cues, is the equivalent of a sitcom laugh track.
3. The GIRL SQUAD ASSEMBLE bit. I get what they were going for, but it felt really hamfisted.
4. Fridging Black Widow.
5. Needed more Drax.


Also, Fat Thor was probably the best part of the film.

I can't fault you on 1 and 3 - the first act was definitely very cumbersome, but better a slow start and a rousing middle and end rather than vice versa. And the GSA would've been great if they hadn't actively taken a long beat to say, "See? See? You complained we didn't have women and now we have lots of women! LOOK AT THEM!". They could have just had it as a moment and it would've been nice.

2 was a little cheesy, but I quite liked it and they have earned it when they've constructed a fight that brings 22 films worth of people together in a way that a) makes sense and b) uses them all well. They're entitled to some self-gladulation.

4 I disagree with, considering she had a butt-tonne of agency and achieved it by outfighting Barton to be the one to make the sacrifice. It was in character for her, especially with her guilt issues over her past and she was active in the choices. A fridge is killing a female character solely to motivate or provoke emotions in a male one - that was a badass sacrifice that was done by a woman.

And 5 I would agree with for most things, but he did get a chunk of the first one and by the time he came back from the Snapture, there wasn't really any room. I would see your 5 and offer 6 - Needed less Starlord. Cause I think that's true of most films he's in.

Chris Hemsworth is an utter treasure and a very underrated comedy actor (as well as being insanely hot when not playing Fat Thor). I'm looking forward to seeing him and Tessa Thompson do Men In Black and I thought there'd never be anything that would get me interested in that franchise again.

Puja

[cashead]

It certainly made the most of its 3-hour run-time, and I certainly never got bored or restless during it, but there were some things that I take issue with.

SPOILERS

1. The pacing of the first act felt a bit off, as the film felt slightly draggy after Thanos got his head chopped off.
2. The unnecessary reaction shit, like where an OP character comes charging into the big fight, and another character says something like "yeah!" or makes a quip. This, and some jarring musical cues, is the equivalent of a sitcom laugh track.
3. The GIRL SQUAD ASSEMBLE bit. I get what they were going for, but it felt really hamfisted.
4. Fridging Black Widow.
5. Needed more Drax.


Also, Fat Thor was probably the best part of the film.

I can't fault you on 1 and 3 - the first act was definitely very cumbersome, but better a slow start and a rousing middle and end rather than vice versa. And the GSA would've been great if they hadn't actively taken a long beat to say, "See? See? You complained we didn't have women and now we have lots of women! LOOK AT THEM!". They could have just had it as a moment and it would've been nice.

2 was a little cheesy, but I quite liked it and they have earned it when they've constructed a fight that brings 22 films worth of people together in a way that a) makes sense and b) uses them all well. They're entitled to some self-gladulation.

4 I disagree with, considering she had a butt-tonne of agency and achieved it by outfighting Barton to be the one to make the sacrifice. It was in character for her, especially with her guilt issues over her past and she was active in the choices. A fridge is killing a female character solely to motivate or provoke emotions in a male one - that was a badass sacrifice that was done by a woman.

And 5 I would agree with for most things, but he did get a chunk of the first one and by the time he came back from the Snapture, there wasn't really any room. I would see your 5 and offer 6 - Needed less Starlord. Cause I think that's true of most films he's in.

Chris Hemsworth is an utter treasure and a very underrated comedy actor (as well as being insanely hot when not playing Fat Thor). I'm looking forward to seeing him and Tessa Thompson do Men In Black and I thought there'd never be anything that would get me interested in that franchise again.

Puja

The issue with the needless quips is that much like the canned laughter, it's something that I find breaks the suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the film, especially because those lines tend to be absolute dogshit (it's only ever been done right once - "we're going to need a bigger boat"), because it comes off as so artificial. Yeah, it's a movie featuring a talking raccoon and time travel, but still.

As for fridging Black Widow, being fridged does not preclude agency in the matter, and it's still a death used to benefit a male character's development - in this case specifically Barton.

[Puja]

The issue with the needless quips is that much like the canned laughter, it's something that I find breaks the suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the film, especially because those lines tend to be absolute dogshit (it's only ever been done right once - "we're going to need a bigger boat"), because it comes off as so artificial. Yeah, it's a movie featuring a talking raccoon and time travel, but still.

As for fridging Black Widow, being fridged does not preclude agency in the matter, and it's still a death used to benefit a male character's development - in this case specifically Barton.

It's not just for his development though - it's her own plot arc, both in terms of "red in her ledger" and "we owe it to the people who aren't here to [do] whatever it takes." It's a death that has an effect on a male character, but it's definitely not the main purpose for it. In fact, one could argue that, while it makes people sad, the death doesn't change anyone's development, least of all Barton (who's driven by the fridging of his wife and daughters (and son)).

It is made more problematic coming by the same method that Gamora was fridged in IW though.

Puja

[OptimisticJock]

Agree with Puja re Black Widows death. It would have been too much of a cliche for me if it was Hawkeye that made the sacrifice.

I go along with everything else though but I though they dragged fat Thor out a bit much.

Great film all in.

Is Loki getting a film or is he going to feature in the next Guardians/Thor film?

[Puja]

Agree with Puja re Black Widows death. It would have been too much of a cliche for me if it was Hawkeye that made the sacrifice.

I go along with everything else though but I though they dragged fat Thor out a bit much.

Great film all in.

Is Loki getting a film or is he going to feature in the next Guardians/Thor film?

Loki's supposed to be getting his own television series despite being pre-Snapture dead and thus not having been brought back by the end of the film. Wouldn't surprise me if they use the parallel universe one who stole and escaped with the Tesseract.

On that subject, one of the things that really pleased me about Endgame was that it stated the time travel mechanics early, selected ones that weren't 90% bullshit and handwaving by weight, and stayed consistent to them throughout. As a result, the rare sight of a film with time travel that wasn't riddled with plot holes and fridge logic.

Puja

[cashead]

The issue with the needless quips is that much like the canned laughter, it's something that I find breaks the suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the film, especially because those lines tend to be absolute dogshit (it's only ever been done right once - "we're going to need a bigger boat"), because it comes off as so artificial. Yeah, it's a movie featuring a talking raccoon and time travel, but still.

As for fridging Black Widow, being fridged does not preclude agency in the matter, and it's still a death used to benefit a male character's development - in this case specifically Barton.

It's not just for his development though - it's her own plot arc, both in terms of "red in her ledger" and "we owe it to the people who aren't here to [do] whatever it takes." It's a death that has an effect on a male character, but it's definitely not the main purpose for it. In fact, one could argue that, while it makes people sad, the death doesn't change anyone's development, least of all Barton (who's driven by the fridging of his wife and daughters (and son)).

It is made more problematic coming by the same method that Gamora was fridged in IW though.

Puja

But this also contradicts her earlier character development, in which she's defined by a determination to keep fighting, even after a cataclysmic defeat. The entire film treats her character like shit, like how suddenly Iron Man and Captain America are in charge despite a prolonged absence, and her narrative arc is shunted aside in favour of Stark, Cap and no one's favourite Avenger, Hawkeye. Hell, even potentially interesting storylines that could've been, like Ant-Man coming to terms with everything that he's lost or Bruce Banner and Hulk learning to co-exist are wasted.

You argue that it's a culmination of her character arc, which was started in Age of Ultron, but that character arc itself is massively problematic, as her monstrosity is defined by her being unable to bear children - a woman deemed "lesser" because her reproductive organs don't function right (even if this wasn't the intention, it sure as fuck comes off like that - and it felt even more jarring since that one was written by Joss Whedon, who couldn't shut up about how much of a feminist he was, and how tonedeaf it came off as, in comparison to how Rey or Furiosa were written in that same calendar year), and consequently, the Endgame ends up coming off like it's arguing that Clint Barton - whom by his own admission has committed mass murder - has more reason to live because he's got a family, despite his inability to achieve that level of closure that Black Widow did.

This then also brings in the GIRL SQUAD ASSEMBLE moment, which ends up feeling even more tacked on and sticking out because by going out of its way to feature the female characters of the film, it also emphasises how little they've been featured in the film.

[Puja]

The issue with the needless quips is that much like the canned laughter, it's something that I find breaks the suspension of disbelief and takes me out of the film, especially because those lines tend to be absolute dogshit (it's only ever been done right once - "we're going to need a bigger boat"), because it comes off as so artificial. Yeah, it's a movie featuring a talking raccoon and time travel, but still.

As for fridging Black Widow, being fridged does not preclude agency in the matter, and it's still a death used to benefit a male character's development - in this case specifically Barton.

It's not just for his development though - it's her own plot arc, both in terms of "red in her ledger" and "we owe it to the people who aren't here to [do] whatever it takes." It's a death that has an effect on a male character, but it's definitely not the main purpose for it. In fact, one could argue that, while it makes people sad, the death doesn't change anyone's development, least of all Barton (who's driven by the fridging of his wife and daughters (and son)).

It is made more problematic coming by the same method that Gamora was fridged in IW though.

Puja

But this also contradicts her earlier character development, in which she's defined by a determination to keep fighting, even after a cataclysmic defeat. The entire film treats her character like shit, like how suddenly Iron Man and Captain America are in charge despite a prolonged absence, and her narrative arc is shunted aside in favour of Stark, Cap and no one's favourite Avenger, Hawkeye. Hell, even potentially interesting storylines that could've been, like Ant-Man coming to terms with everything that he's lost or Bruce Banner and Hulk learning to co-exist are wasted.

You argue that it's a culmination of her character arc, which was started in Age of Ultron, but that character arc itself is massively problematic, as her monstrosity is defined by her being unable to bear children - a woman deemed "lesser" because her reproductive organs don't function right (even if this wasn't the intention, it sure as fuck comes off like that - and it felt even more jarring since that one was written by Joss Whedon, who couldn't shut up about how much of a feminist he was, and how tonedeaf it came off as, in comparison to how Rey or Furiosa were written in that same calendar year), and consequently, the Endgame ends up coming off like it's arguing that Clint Barton - whom by his own admission has committed mass murder - has more reason to live because he's got a family, despite his inability to achieve that level of closure that Black Widow did.

This then also brings in the GIRL SQUAD ASSEMBLE moment, which ends up feeling even more tacked on and sticking out because by going out of its way to feature the female characters of the film, it also emphasises how little they've been featured in the film.

You're not wrong about Iron Man and Captain America getting shunted back to the top of the pyramid, nor about her general shoddy treatment by the narrative (and dear gods, that line in Age of Ultron - even if you buy the line that it wasn't meant to come across like that, it's still fucking awful). And you've absolutely nailed it about why the GSA moment annoyed me when I couldn't articulate it myself.

However, I still don't mind her death. To me, it's not contradicting her determination to keep fighting as it is a determination to do whatever it takes to win. The "red in her ledger" wasn't from Age of Ultron, but the original Avengers when she's talking about trying to rescue Barton - about how he was the one to turn her from being an aimless freelance assassin to being with SHIELD and how she owes him for believing in her and showing her another way. It's symmetry to her trying to reach him when he's going off killing loads of people and it makes sense that both of them, who have saved each others lives a lot of times and each believe they owe the other, would fight to save the other.

Of course, this would've been a whole lot better if a) we'd actually had the Black Widow film by now and given the proper time to that backstory properly rather than having it be an aside in dialogue and b) there weren't the incredibly unfortunate implications that you pointed out from the AoU infertility=monster thing and her fighting to save her friend because he has kids.

tl;dr - you're generally right, but I would say more about her general treatment by the narrative, rather than her death itself, which was far from the worst thing they've done with her.

Puja

[morepork]

Brilliant?

Not sure if serious...

I enjoyed it a lot. Did you not?

Puja

Sorry boss, no. I can't get into the whole Thoopa Heroth thing, but I'm not here to rain on your parade.

365 million is a a lot of fish and chips but.

[cashead]

Brilliant?

Not sure if serious...

I enjoyed it a lot. Did you not?

Puja

Sorry boss, no. I can't get into the whole Thoopa Heroth thing, but I'm not here to rain on your parade.

365 million is a a lot of fish and chips but.

[Puja]

Brilliant?

Not sure if serious...

I enjoyed it a lot. Did you not?

Puja

Sorry boss, no. I can't get into the whole Thoopa Heroth thing, but I'm not here to rain on your parade.

365 million is a a lot of fish and chips but.

This... might not be the best thread for you, idk.

Puja

[Big D]

I am assuming the Black Widow movie will be a prequel with Budapest involved as she and Barton mention it in two separate movies.

I felt the movie was probably 15-20 min too long. The last battle was a case of waiting until the cavalry arrived. I didn't know any spoilers but it was clear what was coming so didn't see the need to wait.

Tom Holland has done a great job as Spider-Man, he is one of the characters that has built an emotional investment in fairly quickly. Maybe it's him and Starks relationship but I felt like I cared. Not sure how the time line works with him rocking back up to school 5 years later though?

Still can't really take to Chris Evans and Captain America. I assume the idea that he went back and married his woman is that he was always her husband somehow as the BB/Hulk said something about no one can change their destiny.

Puja, agree on Hemsworth. Love him in these movies.

Love Korg too

[Big D]

Bit of an interview I read taken from somewhere else:

Why does Natasha Romanoff have to die?
McFEELY Her journey, in our minds, had come to an end if she could get the Avengers back. She comes from such an abusive, terrible, mind-control background, so when she gets to Vormir and she has a chance to get the family back, that’s a thing she would trade for. The toughest thing for us was we were always worried that people weren’t going to have time to be sad enough. The stakes are still out there and they haven’t solved the problem. But we lost a big character — a female character — how do we honor it? We have this male lens and it’s a lot of guys being sad that a woman died.
MARKUS Tony gets a funeral. Natasha doesn’t. That’s partly because Tony’s this massive public figure and she’s been a cipher the whole time. It wasn’t necessarily honest to the character to give her a funeral. The biggest question about it is what Thor raises there on the dock. “We have the Infinity Stones. Why don’t we just bring her back?”
McFEELY But that’s the everlasting exchange. You bring her back, you lose the stone.

Was there a possible outcome where Clint Barton sacrifices himself instead of her?
McFEELY There was, for sure. Jen Underdahl, our visual effects producer, read an outline or draft where Hawkeye goes over. And she goes, “Don’t you take this away from her.” I actually get emotional thinking about it.
MARKUS And it was true, it was him taking the hit for her. It was melodramatic to have him die and not get his family back. And it is only right and proper that she’s done.

[mightyharlequin]

Big Fan of the MCU and loved the movie. 21 installments building to a wonderful finale.

Highlight's for me:

5) Broken Thor pleading "...Let me do it. Let me do something good, something right"
4) Favreau in the Cheeseburgers scene
3) Tony to Cap "You said we'd lose together...we lost, you weren't there ...liar"
2) Ant-man seeing his now grown daughter.
1) Cap wielding Mjolnir

[Donny osmond]

Apols for being late to this thread, dont drop in much anymore.

Anyway, great film despite all the plot holes that come with time travel, which I was disappointed with, I think its a lazy device for progressing a story.

As a father of two daughters who both dearly loved Black Widow I was very disappointed in her death. Also thought Captain Marvel was criminally underused... had her own entire film as a set up and then was in the Grand Finale for like 5 minutes.

Biggest bug bear:
Antman turned giant and could've crushed Thanos' entire army in about 3 steps yet barely featured in the final battle? Hmmmm


So, loved it for the vision and the way it brought together the whole MCU series, but I'm not sure in 5 or 10 years it will be seen as a great or even very good film, certainly doesnt stand on its own in the way the other films do, and thats a shame. Great way to waste 3 hours tho.

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

[morepork]

Here you go nerds:

Marvel has announced a bumper crop of 10 new superhero movies at Comic Con.

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-49060944

That should be enough to keep your fapping arm at Warp Speed for years to come. Like a fiddler's elbow.

[Mikey Brown]

Jesus Christ. It’s never going to end is it.

[Puja]

Jesus Christ. It’s never going to end is it.

Just like Star Wars/LotR/GoT sequels/prequels/spin-offs, Disney remakes, and Toy Story sequels, it'll run until the printing press of money stops producing.

Looking at that slate, I'm not sure how many of them I'll be bothered to see in the cinema. Granted, Marvel's got a history of making their B and C list properties into good films, but I can't say those look particularly enthralling.

Puja

[cashead]

Jesus Christ. It’s never going to end is it.

Just like Star Wars/LotR/GoT sequels/prequels/spin-offs, Disney remakes, and Toy Story sequels, it'll run until the printing press of money stops producing.

Looking at that slate, I'm not sure how many of them I'll be bothered to see in the cinema. Granted, Marvel's got a history of making their B and C list properties into good films, but I can't say those look particularly enthralling.

Puja

4 of the 5 films featured at the SDCC panel are being directed by POCs (2 of whom are women), and all 5 of them have POCs or women in leading roles. Personally, I think that it's fantastic, plus based on the success of films like Black Panther and Captain Marvel, as well as films like Crazy Rich Asians, Get Out and Us, it's pretty clear that there is a massive audience out there that are wanting to see more than just a bunch of stories about GENERIC WHITE GUY TYPE 4, SUBSET C.

[Puja]

Jesus Christ. It’s never going to end is it.

Just like Star Wars/LotR/GoT sequels/prequels/spin-offs, Disney remakes, and Toy Story sequels, it'll run until the printing press of money stops producing.

Looking at that slate, I'm not sure how many of them I'll be bothered to see in the cinema. Granted, Marvel's got a history of making their B and C list properties into good films, but I can't say those look particularly enthralling.

Puja

4 of the 5 films featured at the SDCC panel are being directed by POCs (2 of whom are women), and all 5 of them have POCs or women in leading roles. Personally, I think that it's fantastic, plus based on the success of films like Black Panther and Captain Marvel, as well as films like Crazy Rich Asians, Get Out and Us, it's pretty clear that there is a massive audience out there that are wanting to see more than just a bunch of stories about GENERIC WHITE GUY TYPE 4, SUBSET C.

... good point, well made.

Puja


PS. Although I think we can all agree that no-one needs a Loki television series spinoff. I'd rather they'd brought Agent Carter back.

[Which Tyler]

Turning this into an overarching MCU thread...

Kit Harrington cast into the MCU, strongly rumoured as Wolverine (hah!), even though we've been told they won't reboot the X-Men particularly soon... Which leaves Deadpool 3 as the obvious place for him...



I'm imagining someone kidnapping Hugh Jackman (the Broadway actor), thinking that he's wolverine, Wade teams up with Harrington's wolverine to rescue the damselled Hugh Jackman.

Wade and villain are utterly confused, no-one else knows why. References to Origins. Hilarity ensues.