Team for Argentina 2

[Graigwen]

Wales team to face Argentina, Saturday 17th July, 15:00 (live on S4C)

1 Gareth Thomas (Ospreys) (2 caps)

2 Elliot Dee (Dragons) (39 caps)

3 Leon Brown (Dragons) (19 caps)

4 Ben Carter (Dragons) (2 cap)

5 Will Rowlands (Dragons) (9 caps)

6 Josh Turnbull (Cardiff Rugby) (12 caps)

7 James Botham (Cardiff Rugby) (8 caps)

8 Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (47 caps)

9 Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby) (24 caps)

10 Jarrod Evans (Cardiff Rugby) (7 caps)

11 Tom Rogers (Scarlets) (2 caps)

12 Jonathan Davies (CAPT) (Scarlets) (90 caps)

13 Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (12 caps)

14 Owen Lane (Cardiff Rugby) (3 caps)

15 Hallam Amos (Cardiff Rugby) (24 caps)

Replacements

16 Sam Parry (Ospreys) (4 caps)

17 Rhodri Jones (Ospreys) (20 cap)

18 Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Rugby) (30 caps)

19 Matthew Screech (Cardiff Rugby) (Uncapped)

20 Taine Basham (Dragons) (2 cap)

21 Kieran Hardy (Scarlets) (6 caps)

22 Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears) (11 caps)

23 Uilisi Halaholo (Cardiff Rugby) (6 caps

[Graigwen]

It is good to see Leon Brown in the right place.

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[Sandydragon]

It is good to see Leon Brown in the right place.

.

Amen to that.

I'm also pleased that Rhodri Jones is getting a run out. A very good loose head who was nearly ruined by transition to tight head. Not sure why Holmes has been dropped unless injured.

[Graigwen]

It is good to see Leon Brown in the right place.

.

Amen to that.

I'm also pleased that Rhodri Jones is getting a run out. A very good loose head who was nearly ruined by transition to tight head. Not sure why Holmes has been dropped unless injured.

Holmes has certainly not been dropped on performance grounds. He has played well and looked hungry to be involved. If not injured it will just be that this is a chance for a bit of experimentation without too much penalty if it goes wrong.

Years ago I saw Rhodri Jones switched from loose head to tight head playing a great regional game and getting the better of an international prop (Scottish? I can't remember). I jumped to the wrong conclusion and it took me some years to realise this. Some props find it easier to switch sides than others. At a much lower level I played tight head and could survive as a loose head but did not enjoy it as much.


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[Sandydragon]

It is good to see Leon Brown in the right place.

.

Amen to that.

I'm also pleased that Rhodri Jones is getting a run out. A very good loose head who was nearly ruined by transition to tight head. Not sure why Holmes has been dropped unless injured.

Holmes has certainly not been dropped on performance grounds. He has played well and looked hungry to be involved. If not injured it will just be that this is a chance for a bit of experimentation without too much penalty if it goes wrong.

Years ago I saw Rhodri Jones switched from loose head to tight head playing a great regional game and getting the better of an international prop (Scottish? I can't remember). I jumped to the wrong conclusion and it took me some years to realise this. Some props find it easier to switch sides than others. At a much lower level I played tight head and could survive as a loose head but did not enjoy it as much.


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I was always a loosened (and hooker) but could normally survive at tight head. but they are very different positions and its a rare prop who can cover both well.

[Numbers]

It is good to see Leon Brown in the right place.

.

Amen to that.

I'm also pleased that Rhodri Jones is getting a run out. A very good loose head who was nearly ruined by transition to tight head. Not sure why Holmes has been dropped unless injured.

Holmes has certainly not been dropped on performance grounds. He has played well and looked hungry to be involved. If not injured it will just be that this is a chance for a bit of experimentation without too much penalty if it goes wrong.

Years ago I saw Rhodri Jones switched from loose head to tight head playing a great regional game and getting the better of an international prop (Scottish? I can't remember). I jumped to the wrong conclusion and it took me some years to realise this. Some props find it easier to switch sides than others. At a much lower level I played tight head and could survive as a loose head but did not enjoy it as much.


.

Wainwright's missing too.

[Graigwen]

Wainwright's missing too.

He is injured.

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[Son of Mathonwy]

Fair enough, they have a chance. Hope they've learnt more lessons than their opposition: youth is on their side there.

Jarrod Evans deserves his chance to start but I'm scared of a close match hinging on his goal-kicking.

Anyway, bring it on.

[francoisfou]

Here's your opposition:

15. Carreras ; 14. Delguy, 13. Chocobares, 12. De La Fuente, 11. Moroni ; 10. Sanchez, 9. Cubelli ; 7. Isa, 8. Bruni, 6. Matera ; 5. Kremer, 4. Petti ; 3. Gomez Kodela, 3. Montoya (cap.), 1. Tetaz Chaparro.

Replacements : 16. Bosch, 17. Gigena, 18. Medrano, 19. Lavanini, 20. Alemanno, 21. Ezcurra, 22. Miotti, 23. Imhoff.

There are some names I don't know, but no mistake, this team has some very good players, Chocobares of Toulouse and De La Fuente of Perpignan in the centre;,Leicester Tigers' Montoya is an abrasive character, and on the bench are Lavanini and Alemanno and the excellent Imhoff of Racing.

This has the makings of another close game.

[Puja]

I'm surprised that Moroni is preferred on the wing to Imhoff. He's a decent centre, but you'd've thought Imhoff was by far the superior winger.

Puja

[francoisfou]

Well that was hardly inspiring for Welsh supporters. For me, no player put their hand up for consideration come the Autumn Internationals. Having said that, Argentina exceeded my expectations and will be a force to be reckoned with in the Autumn.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Not good. A combination of heat (more familiar to the opposition) and mostly second or third choice players led to a ridiculous series of errors, and defeat. Every time we built something we threw it away. Hopefully the players will have learned something from this. Unfortunately it was a game where our overall standard was so bad that it was hard for any of our players to look good, even if they were error-free. Difficult to draw any conclusions re the Sheedy vs Evans question.

Tough start for Tom Rogers (we seriously missed Holmes), but he just started the error count for us. His call up was probably a little too soon though. Hope he learns from this and redoubles his efforts at the Scarlets.

I think Amos was unlucky. The TMO should have had a good look at what the Argentinian 9 did - he saw Amos coming, turned round and walk into his path, leaving Amos to clatter, late, into the other player. Seemed like a cynical obstruction to me, and not much Amos could have done about it.

[Sandydragon]

That was bad. Credit to a good Argentina side who are no mugs.

Lots of first team players missing which does make a difference. Many players not yet ready to step up without a comfort blanket of experience around them.

[Numbers]

Not good. A combination of heat (more familiar to the opposition) and mostly second or third choice players led to a ridiculous series of errors, and defeat. Every time we built something we threw it away. Hopefully the players will have learned something from this. Unfortunately it was a game where our overall standard was so bad that it was hard for any of our players to look good, even if they were error-free. Difficult to draw any conclusions re the Sheedy vs Evans question.

Tough start for Tom Rogers (we seriously missed Holmes), but he just started the error count for us. His call up was probably a little too soon though. Hope he learns from this and redoubles his efforts at the Scarlets.

I think Amos was unlucky. The TMO should have had a good look at what the Argentinian 9 did - he saw Amos coming, turned round and walk into his path, leaving Amos to clatter, late, into the other player. Seemed like a cynical obstruction to me, and not much Amos could have done about it.

To be fair I think Amos didn't even see the 9 as he was looking up at the ball, had the 9 not been there he would have just run into the 15 anyway, the players competing need to be aware of other players competing for the ball or cards are inevitable.

Agreed that this hasn't been very successful in blooding youngsters or I suppose it's shown that they have a lot of work to do to reach the necessary standards.

[Digby]

It's possible Amos could have earned a pen for being blocked, but having been blocked he ran ahead unsighted and tipped a bloke onto his head. It doesn't quite feel that continuing to run is the same as couldn't do anything about it

[Son of Mathonwy]

Not good. A combination of heat (more familiar to the opposition) and mostly second or third choice players led to a ridiculous series of errors, and defeat. Every time we built something we threw it away. Hopefully the players will have learned something from this. Unfortunately it was a game where our overall standard was so bad that it was hard for any of our players to look good, even if they were error-free. Difficult to draw any conclusions re the Sheedy vs Evans question.

Tough start for Tom Rogers (we seriously missed Holmes), but he just started the error count for us. His call up was probably a little too soon though. Hope he learns from this and redoubles his efforts at the Scarlets.

I think Amos was unlucky. The TMO should have had a good look at what the Argentinian 9 did - he saw Amos coming, turned round and walk into his path, leaving Amos to clatter, late, into the other player. Seemed like a cynical obstruction to me, and not much Amos could have done about it.

To be fair I think Amos didn't even see the 9 as he was looking up at the ball, had the 9 not been there he would have just run into the 15 anyway, the players competing need to be aware of other players competing for the ball or cards are inevitable.

Agreed that this hasn't been very successful in blooding youngsters or I suppose it's shown that they have a lot of work to do to reach the necessary standards.

Blooding has happened, only time will tell if it was successful. The 'tour' was a failure on results but may well have laid foundations for the future. Even players who struggled can use this as impetus to get better (like Mo Farah in Beijing).

[Sandydragon]

A coup,e of the younger players didn’t look out of their depth. I think Ben Carter has a bit future ahead of him. Ditto Ben Thomas.

Holmes demonstrated that he can bring his club form to the international stage.

It’s not been a great summer tour but equally there have been some positive and I think we have learnt more than England will have playing a couple of minnow sides.

[Wallpaperman]

It was definitely the time to try out the fringe players, and I agree that Carter looks to have a good future. I also like the look of Ben Thomas, but he might not be the type of 12 Pivac goes for in future. I suspect that his preference is for a more physical player, as he has chosen Johnny Williams and then Jon Davies at 12. He used to pick Parkes at 12 for the Scarlets, too. Nice to have options though.

Jonah Holmes looks test class at 14 or 15, but there wasn’t too much cause for optimism elsewhere in the back 3. Rogers has pace and talent, but is too inexperienced at the moment, and I’m not sure about Lane. He is strong and he backs himself but he is not there either. Ashton Hewitt picked the wrong time to get injured. Amos had a good first game v Argentina (not sure how he was man of the match though) but dropped a couple on Saturday. I think the card was unlucky, but at the same time he could also have been sent off !

I hoped to see more from the half backs. Sheedy is a good 10, but was targeted defensively and that needs to be looked at. I was disappointed with Kieran Hardy, and thought Tomos Williams went better. Both of them kicked poorly.

A pretty much second string pack was always going to have a massive battle against Argentina. Pivac went back to picking props who struggle in the scrum (although Leon Brown has improved) and I wasn’t sure about the selection of a one paced back row for the second test. If they were to experiment I can’t see the merits of picking Josh Turnbull, even if he did have a good season. I suppose it is unfortunate that Wainwright was injured the week before. Rowlands fronted up pretty well for the most part but missed a tackle on Matera in both tests. I think he has done enough for now to take the Jake Ball spot and be the most likely 3rd second row in a match 23, behind Alun-Wyn and Beard (who is impressing for the Lions). As to hooker, Ken Owens will be first choice for as long as he can stay fit, unless Phillips or Lake can really kick on at the Ospreys.

I’m not sure if anyone will have forced their way into the side when the Lions return and if Francis, Tipuric, Johnny Williams and North are fit. Dee, Brown, Rowlands and Wainwright or Moriarty look like bench options, as do Sheedy and Jonah Holmes. Perhaps one of the scrum halves will start ahead of Gareth Davies, but not on this form. We’ll see in the new season if Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Patchell and Anscombe can get fit and reach their old levels. I still think Ollie Griffiths could thrive in the first 15 if he could stay fit but I have been saying it for a couple of years now !

[Graigwen]

It was definitely the time to try out the fringe players, and I agree that Carter looks to have a good future. I also like the look of Ben Thomas, but he might not be the type of 12 Pivac goes for in future. I suspect that his preference is for a more physical player, as he has chosen Johnny Williams and then Jon Davies at 12. He used to pick Parkes at 12 for the Scarlets, too. Nice to have options though.

Jonah Holmes looks test class at 14 or 15, but there wasn’t too much cause for optimism elsewhere in the back 3. Rogers has pace and talent, but is too inexperienced at the moment, and I’m not sure about Lane. He is strong and he backs himself but he is not there either. Ashton Hewitt picked the wrong time to get injured. Amos had a good first game v Argentina (not sure how he was man of the match though) but dropped a couple on Saturday. I think the card was unlucky, but at the same time he could also have been sent off !

I hoped to see more from the half backs. Sheedy is a good 10, but was targeted defensively and that needs to be looked at. I was disappointed with Kieran Hardy, and thought Tomos Williams went better. Both of them kicked poorly.

A pretty much second string pack was always going to have a massive battle against Argentina. Pivac went back to picking props who struggle in the scrum (although Leon Brown has improved) and I wasn’t sure about the selection of a one paced back row for the second test. If they were to experiment I can’t see the merits of picking Josh Turnbull, even if he did have a good season. I suppose it is unfortunate that Wainwright was injured the week before. Rowlands fronted up pretty well for the most part but missed a tackle on Matera in both tests. I think he has done enough for now to take the Jake Ball spot and be the most likely 3rd second row in a match 23, behind Alun-Wyn and Beard (who is impressing for the Lions). As to hooker, Ken Owens will be first choice for as long as he can stay fit, unless Phillips or Lake can really kick on at the Ospreys.

I’m not sure if anyone will have forced their way into the side when the Lions return and if Francis, Tipuric, Johnny Williams and North are fit. Dee, Brown, Rowlands and Wainwright or Moriarty look like bench options, as do Sheedy and Jonah Holmes. Perhaps one of the scrum halves will start ahead of Gareth Davies, but not on this form. We’ll see in the new season if Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Patchell and Anscombe can get fit and reach their old levels. I still think Ollie Griffiths could thrive in the first 15 if he could stay fit but I have been saying it for a couple of years now !

I was going to post some insightful comments on the game, but wallpaperman has done this, I agree with all his comments.

The Argentinians had a simple plan and executed it well. We made errors all the time. Why are all our box kicks far too long? It is not a disaster, but there really are lessons which must be learned.

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[Sandydragon]

Definitely some food for thought. Next season will begin that inevitable march towards the next RWC, so the time for significant experimentation is probably over and it will all be about form.

We have a core of good players (some must be close to retirement but I wouldn't bet against AWJ or Owens making the next RWC).

Assuming that Halfpenny might be out for a while and might not make it back, then we have identified that Jonah Holmes is quite capable at full back/wing. We know we have LRZ and Adams alongside Liam Williams. I don't think Amos will make it - he is inconsistent (and I still think he should be moved to 13 early in his career).

Centres there is some competition. North is of course showing he can make the cut here, and we still have Foxy, although I don't think he is the player he was. Jonny Williams, Owen Watkin are also solid options alongside Halaholo. And of course Tompkins who can blow a bit hot and cold.

Half backs is surely Biggar and Sheedy, with Evans pushing them. We have to let a scrum half have a decent run of games, even if they cock up. I'd pick Tomos Williams for the next season unless injured with Davies on the bench.

No is is Faletau with Moriarty and Wainwright both options.
Flankers of course includes Tips, Navidi. Botham is developing and Im not convinced by Cubby at international level. Olly Griffiths is a machine when fit and Jenkins is back for Cardiff (I think unless injured again) which is positive.

Locks. AWJ and Beard is our best starting selection. Rowlands is alright but I hoped for more. That may still come in time. Ben Carter is one for the future most definitely.

Hooker- Owens remains our best and we have Elias and Dee coming through as well, with Parry an option.

Props. Francis and Lee remain our best THs with Brown the one I would rate next. On the loose head, if Rob Evans is fit again then thats good news, but Wyn Jonesi s the clear leader. I don't think Carre is quite there yet, but I do rate Rhodri Jones as a fairly experienced international who is back in his preferred position.

I don't think anyone has really broken through this 'Summer tour', with the possible exception of Holmes who has taken his chance well. Some development projects for the future in a few positions, who will get opportunities as key players get injured.