Team v SAES

[Tuco Ramirez]

Just think we need to go back to the drawing board.

1 Carre
2 Owens
3 Francis
4 Tshunza
5 Beard
6 Morgan
7 Reffell
8 Faletau
9 Webb
10 Sheedy
11 Adams
12 Hawkins
13 Tompkins
14 Grady
15 LRZ

[pompey-zebra]

Yeah, why not.

[UKHamlet]

Sheedy is Biggar without the intellect.

[pompey-zebra]

Sheedy is Biggar without the intellect.

I'm not sure that will make any difference.

[Sandydragon]

I’d keep the same flankers as today but start with Faletau and have Morgan on the bench. Same second row as well.

Shame Lake is injured otherwise I’d replace Ken. WYN Jones at least had some carries, might need Francis back.

Half backs I’d think carefully about. If LRZ is fit then he need to be in the team. What are the alternatives to North? Tompkins?

[Wallpaperman]

I’d keep the same flankers as today but start with Faletau and have Morgan on the bench. Same second row as well.

Shame Lake is injured otherwise I’d replace Ken. WYN Jones at least had some carries, might need Francis back.

Half backs I’d think carefully about. If LRZ is fit then he need to be in the team. What are the alternatives to North? Tompkins?

Jiffy was talking about Grady, but surely they won’t pick him against England.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I’d keep the same flankers as today but start with Faletau and have Morgan on the bench. Same second row as well.

Shame Lake is injured otherwise I’d replace Ken. WYN Jones at least had some carries, might need Francis back.

Half backs I’d think carefully about. If LRZ is fit then he need to be in the team. What are the alternatives to North? Tompkins?

Jiffy was talking about Grady, but surely they won’t pick him against England.

Dyer's looking a bit green be playing at this level. So it's definitely too early for Grady, who has yet to establish himself at Cardiff.

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past Gatland, he does like his big players. Hopefully LRZ will be back so this idea will disappear.

[Sandydragon]

The only experience we can put at centre is really Tompkins.

[Son of Mathonwy]

My team for England:

Thomas
Owens
Francis
Jenkins
Davies
Tshiunza
Morgan
Faletau
Webb
Owen Williams
Adams
Keiran Williams
North
LRZ
Liam Williams

Bench: Wyn Jones, Lewis, Baldwin, Reffell, Tipuric, Hardy, Patchell, Hawkins

NB the selection (within reason) is far less important than what the coaches do to drill some sensible tactics into them in the next 2 weeks. At the moment they are unable to execute whatever plan Gatland has - attack is full of errors, defence is very leaky, discipline is hopeless (17 penalties today!).

I really don't mind which props we have, this week's s or last week's. For hooker, there's no serious alternative to Ken.

2nd row. It may be that Beard is too much of the lineout expert to leave out but otherwise I'd start Davies and Jenkins. 2 row cover is Tshiunza, who starts at 6, which is why we have 2 sevens on the bench. Back row, let's try Morgan at 7 this time and obviously back to the master, Faletau.

For the rest, my opinion hasn't changed. I'm not that impressed with Sanjay but there's no real alternative.

Finally I would call up Giles to the squad in case LRZ hasn't recovered in time.

[Sandydragon]

There were some periods yesterday where we actually looked proficient with ball in hand. The Carre near miss was a case in point where we generated quick ball from
Good driving play. There was another incident where Faletau and Carre interlinked and could have resulted in a try, but Carries hands let him down. And of course the Dyer near miss.

When it clicks we can be a good attacking force but we need to cut out the errors )the Carre hold up was good defence and that’s one of those things). But we must:

Cut out the penalties
Sort out set piece
Take a deep breath and get some composure

I think that we will have to persevere for a while yet for this to work. It can and I can see where we are going but I do feel as if this is four years of transition in 2 weeks

[MrK]

Who I’d pick

Zammit, Adams, Tompkins, Williams, Grady, Evans, Williams
Smith, Parry, Lewis, R Davies, S Davies, Moriaty, Reffel, Faletau

B: Roberts, Carre, Brown, Tshiunza. Morgan, Webb, Williams, L Williams

Of course, I know that won’t happen , so assuming

Williams, Adam’s, North, Tompkins, LRZ, Biggar, Webb
Thomas, Owens, Lewis, Beard, R Davies, tshiunza, Reffel, Faletau

Baldwin, Carre, Brown, AWJ, Tipuric, Hardy, Williams, Cuthbert

[Son of Mathonwy]

There were some periods yesterday where we actually looked proficient with ball in hand. The Carre near miss was a case in point where we generated quick ball from
Good driving play. There was another incident where Faletau and Carre interlinked and could have resulted in a try, but Carries hands let him down. And of course the Dyer near miss.

When it clicks we can be a good attacking force but we need to cut out the errors )the Carre hold up was good defence and that’s one of those things). But we must:

Cut out the penalties
Sort out set piece
Take a deep breath and get some composure

I think that we will have to persevere for a while yet for this to work. It can and I can see where we are going but I do feel as if this is four years of transition in 2 weeks

Sure, we are making chances - that's better than the alternative - but Zebre make chances, it counts for nothing if the points don't come. Twice in two matches we've had a ball held up over the tryline and an attack ruined - I hate this rule but it's been with us a few years now, we need to work around it.

Maybe in a couple of weeks we can cut down on the errors and make this work - I hope so but am not confident. This is a long in the tooth Gatland, minus Shaun Edwards.

(NB for Carre's dropped pass I think a Scottish hand got into the mix and spoiled the pass, so not really his fault.)

I think this whole transition thing is a distraction, an excuse. Pivac was already bringing in most of the young players we've seen - Jenkins, Hawkins, Reffell, Dyer. Gatland is just continuing to play them (and has brought in a couple more, as you do). The younger players are not obviously better or worse than the veterans, and we are so close to the WC that it's not (generally) worth developing a player who isn't at test level yet - there are plenty of older ones who are. The issue is that under Gatland, most players - young and old - are playing relatively poorly and are certainly not playing coherently as a team. Hopefully this will pass, but it's not about 'pain we must go through because Pivac didn't do his job and develop players'. That's just an excuse for poor coaching.

[Sandydragon]

I do think we can’t ignore the transition issue. Yes we have a gap between the grey beards and the youngsters where there are fewer internationals in their prime. That’s partly Gatlands fault as he stuck with veterans for the 2029 RWC. But Privac had an opportunity to bring on the next generation and whilst he capped a number of players, how many of those got a run of games to prove their worth? Scrum half and centre in particular changed almost every game. Privac didn’t have it easy but it feels like we have wasted four years.

[Tuco Ramirez]

North is awful, not a centre as long as he got a hole in his arse

[normanski]

Whatever side is chosen, the coaches have to work very hard to improve the missed tackle stats. We let Ireland and Scotland build up momentum at key times because of so many missed tackles.

We need to get back to a very high rate of completed and dominant tackles of Gatland’s first era and we’re having to do it without Sean Edwards.

I don’t know if we can lift ourselves for the next game but we as sure as hell need a stepped improvement.

[Sandydragon]

Whatever side is chosen, the coaches have to work very hard to improve the missed tackle stats. We let Ireland and Scotland build up momentum at key times because of so many missed tackles.

We need to get back to a very high rate of completed and dominant tackles of Gatland’s first era and we’re having to do it without Sean Edwards.

I don’t know if we can lift ourselves for the next game but we as sure as hell need a stepped improvement.

Its a big argument for bringing back Moriarty (albeit it would be harsh to drop Christ who did well I thought). Moriarty loves playing England and just telling him that he has a chance to prove himself against the Saes would be a huge motivation for at least a dozen dominant tackles.

Probably also half a dozen penalties....

[Son of Mathonwy]

I do think we can’t ignore the transition issue. Yes we have a gap between the grey beards and the youngsters where there are fewer internationals in their prime. That’s partly Gatlands fault as he stuck with veterans for the 2029 RWC. But Privac had an opportunity to bring on the next generation and whilst he capped a number of players, how many of those got a run of games to prove their worth? Scrum half and centre in particular changed almost every game. Privac didn’t have it easy but it feels like we have wasted four years.

If you compare squads from one world cup to the next you can get a rough idea of how quickly the coaches brought new players in:

In 2015 Gatland used 16 out of the 30 man 2011 squad ie 53%.
In 2019 Gatland used 12 out of the 35 man 2015 squad ie 34%.
In Autumn 2022 Pivac used 13 of the 33 man 2019 squad ie 39%.

So I don't see that Pivac was failing here. Sure there are differences in the details - Gatland tended to select the same players again and again whereas Pivac seemed to switch more often - and there are pros and cons to both approaches.

A measure of failure to develop players is, where are the players in their prime years who did not make it but should have? The only clear one for me where Pivac is culpable is Jonah Holmes. Maybe Seb Davies? Hill, Amos and (it seems) Rowlands have made their own decisions.

On arrival Gatland moaned about the lack of development, but that was just him getting his excuses in early. Development must happen at all times, that's normal. But this 'transition' thing is IMO a distraction - we can have a transition after the world cup. Now is not the time. We need to use our best players now whether young or old, we do not need a clear out.

[Sandydragon]

I do think we can’t ignore the transition issue. Yes we have a gap between the grey beards and the youngsters where there are fewer internationals in their prime. That’s partly Gatlands fault as he stuck with veterans for the 2029 RWC. But Privac had an opportunity to bring on the next generation and whilst he capped a number of players, how many of those got a run of games to prove their worth? Scrum half and centre in particular changed almost every game. Privac didn’t have it easy but it feels like we have wasted four years.

If you compare squads from one world cup to the next you can get a rough idea of how quickly the coaches brought new players in:

In 2015 Gatland used 16 out of the 30 man 2011 squad ie 53%.
In 2019 Gatland used 12 out of the 35 man 2015 squad ie 34%.
In Autumn 2022 Pivac used 13 of the 33 man 2019 squad ie 39%.

So I don't see that Pivac was failing here. Sure there are differences in the details - Gatland tended to select the same players again and again whereas Pivac seemed to switch more often - and there are pros and cons to both approaches.

A measure of failure to develop players is, where are the players in their prime years who did not make it but should have? The only clear one for me where Pivac is culpable is Jonah Holmes. Maybe Seb Davies? Hill, Amos and (it seems) Rowlands have made their own decisions.

On arrival Gatland moaned about the lack of development, but that was just him getting his excuses in early. Development must happen at all times, that's normal. But this 'transition' thing is IMO a distraction - we can have a transition after the world cup. Now is not the time. We need to use our best players now whether young or old, we do not need a clear out.

My point is that we are in transition now because we should have grasped that after the last RWC. That stats fine until you consider the age of many of those players that make up the 13 who continued after the Privac take over. Maybe Gatland should have brought in new players before 2019, but the situation is now absurd.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I do think we can’t ignore the transition issue. Yes we have a gap between the grey beards and the youngsters where there are fewer internationals in their prime. That’s partly Gatlands fault as he stuck with veterans for the 2029 RWC. But Privac had an opportunity to bring on the next generation and whilst he capped a number of players, how many of those got a run of games to prove their worth? Scrum half and centre in particular changed almost every game. Privac didn’t have it easy but it feels like we have wasted four years.

If you compare squads from one world cup to the next you can get a rough idea of how quickly the coaches brought new players in:

In 2015 Gatland used 16 out of the 30 man 2011 squad ie 53%.
In 2019 Gatland used 12 out of the 35 man 2015 squad ie 34%.
In Autumn 2022 Pivac used 13 of the 33 man 2019 squad ie 39%.

So I don't see that Pivac was failing here. Sure there are differences in the details - Gatland tended to select the same players again and again whereas Pivac seemed to switch more often - and there are pros and cons to both approaches.

A measure of failure to develop players is, where are the players in their prime years who did not make it but should have? The only clear one for me where Pivac is culpable is Jonah Holmes. Maybe Seb Davies? Hill, Amos and (it seems) Rowlands have made their own decisions.

On arrival Gatland moaned about the lack of development, but that was just him getting his excuses in early. Development must happen at all times, that's normal. But this 'transition' thing is IMO a distraction - we can have a transition after the world cup. Now is not the time. We need to use our best players now whether young or old, we do not need a clear out.

My point is that we are in transition now because we should have grasped that after the last RWC. That stats fine until you consider the age of many of those players that make up the 13 who continued after the Privac take over. Maybe Gatland should have brought in new players before 2019, but the situation is now absurd.

I think you may be buying Gatland's narrative a little when you say that the situation is absurd. About half of the survivors from 2019 are under 30, half over. Yes, the squad is a little older than is ideal but with 7 months till the WC what's the problem with that? What matters is, are we playing our best players?

AWJ (37) has been on a process of phasing out for a little while but is still competitive with his rivals (who have only just arrived in the scene). Had Hill and Ball not disappeared unexpectedly he would already be gone. Owens (36) is our best fit hooker and will naturally be overtaken by Lake in the next 12 months.

There's a lot of competition between older and younger players, eg at 7 or 9. This is fine. We can choose Tipuric (33) or Morgan (23) - why worry about their ages, just play the best one. Same for Webb (34) and Tomos (28). Full back isn't ideal, with our main guys at 31 and 34 but Adams and LRZ can step in.

This close to the WC, the only squad transition we should be making is from poorer players to better players. Age should not be a factor in the decision. (And I would assume it doesn't really to Gatland either, with his picks of Biggar (33), Webb (34), Cuthbert (32), Halfpenny (34) etc).

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

[Sandydragon]

I think the issue is that whilst the best players may be the older ones, that doesn't mean they are still capable internationals. A few years ago, some of them would have been in genuine contention, not now.

Development for me would have included Holmes for sure. I would also have settled on a scrum half much earlier and given them a run without the constant changing. The trial with North in the centre was worth a shot, but sadly hasn't been as successful as we hoped.

Losing key locks to overseas has been a huge blow and PRivac brough through Rowlands who ticks all the boxes. But what about Wainwright who has faded from the scene. We do have a wealth of back row talent but instead we have tired to convert Seb Davies into a blindside which hasn't worked when thats game time that Moriarty or Wainwright could have used to to develop still further.

Privac has been dealt some crap cards, including covid. But he could also have drawn a line under the previous generation immediately and given younger players a run, instead of the constant chopping and changing.

[Sandydragon]

The Fail is reporting (possibly this could be bollocks but they quote a number of unnamed players) that there may be strike action by Welsh players for the English match. This is in relation to the complete cluster that is the financial situation and contracts within the WRU.

That would be a nuclear option for sure. We might end up with semi pro players running out against England (could be nasty). Hopefully it won’t come to this but the WRU has once again excelled itself.

[pompey-zebra]

Never a dull moment, is there?

[Son of Mathonwy]

The Fail is reporting (possibly this could be bollocks but they quote a number of unnamed players) that there may be strike action by Welsh players for the English match. This is in relation to the complete cluster that is the financial situation and contracts within the WRU.

That would be a nuclear option for sure. We might end up with semi pro players running out against England (could be nasty). Hopefully it won’t come to this but the WRU has once again excelled itself.

It's almost beyond belief that there's still no signed agreement halfway through February. I wouldn't blame the players for taking action.

[Sandydragon]

The Fail is reporting (possibly this could be bollocks but they quote a number of unnamed players) that there may be strike action by Welsh players for the English match. This is in relation to the complete cluster that is the financial situation and contracts within the WRU.

That would be a nuclear option for sure. We might end up with semi pro players running out against England (could be nasty). Hopefully it won’t come to this but the WRU has once again excelled itself.

It's almost beyond belief that there's still no signed agreement halfway through February. I wouldn't blame the players for taking action.

No, and to be clear I wouldn't blame them either. This is appalling and bother the WRU and the PRB should be held to account for this. If this is your livelihood and you risk losing your job (or worse getting injured which affects your ability to get a new contract at all) then its unacceptable. It puts the decision of certain key players to move overseas into context - the question is less why have they gone and rather if you are a top rugby player, why the hell would you stay in this mess?

[Son of Mathonwy]

The Fail is reporting (possibly this could be bollocks but they quote a number of unnamed players) that there may be strike action by Welsh players for the English match. This is in relation to the complete cluster that is the financial situation and contracts within the WRU.

That would be a nuclear option for sure. We might end up with semi pro players running out against England (could be nasty). Hopefully it won’t come to this but the WRU has once again excelled itself.

It's almost beyond belief that there's still no signed agreement halfway through February. I wouldn't blame the players for taking action.

No, and to be clear I wouldn't blame them either. This is appalling and bother the WRU and the PRB should be held to account for this. If this is your livelihood and you risk losing your job (or worse getting injured which affects your ability to get a new contract at all) then its unacceptable. It puts the decision of certain key players to move overseas into context - the question is less why have they gone and rather if you are a top rugby player, why the hell would you stay in this mess?

Awful situation. And although it threatens the WRU where it hurts in the short term, it would be the regions which would really pay the price. If there's an exodus of Welsh players the WRU will simply scrap the 60 cap rule and still get a squad. The regions will lose their best players and stand no chance in any competition. Downsizing the regions would be almost inevitable.