Team v SAES

[Sandydragon]

And even if this strike doesn't go ahead, that is a massive challenge for Gatland and his coaching team to overcome in planning for England at home.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I think the issue is that whilst the best players may be the older ones, that doesn't mean they are still capable internationals. A few years ago, some of them would have been in genuine contention, not now.

Development for me would have included Holmes for sure. I would also have settled on a scrum half much earlier and given them a run without the constant changing. The trial with North in the centre was worth a shot, but sadly hasn't been as successful as we hoped.

Losing key locks to overseas has been a huge blow and PRivac brough through Rowlands who ticks all the boxes. But what about Wainwright who has faded from the scene. We do have a wealth of back row talent but instead we have tired to convert Seb Davies into a blindside which hasn't worked when thats game time that Moriarty or Wainwright could have used to to develop still further.

Privac has been dealt some crap cards, including covid. But he could also have drawn a line under the previous generation immediately and given younger players a run, instead of the constant chopping and changing.

For me Gatland was too focused on his core players and didn't give enough of a chance to others. (Although it helps if you have players of the calibre of Roberts, AWJ, Shane, Phillips, Faletau and Halfpenny (in their prime)). Pivac was probably too far the other way, giving too many a chance and making too many changes. And now we'll never know how that would have worked out in a world cup.

Yeah, the Jonah Holmes thing is a bit inexplicable. Like how invisible Ian Evans and Richie Rees were to Gatland. Seb Davies was a reasonable shot that never really worked. North I think has worked and given the alternatives has been pretty effective (he's not looked too good in the last couple of games but not many have). A few stars have appeared, like LRZ, Morgan, Reffell and Lake. To be honest I'm positive about the quality of players, not so much about their coaching or development pathways.

[pompey-zebra]

Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

[Numbers]

I think we need to stick with Tshiunza @ 6 and Reffell @ 7 as these are two that have impressed highly, I see Lleyellyn should be fit for Cardiff on the weekend, maybe worth drafting him in for a look too, him and Grady in the centres would be Gatgasmic.

[Sandydragon]

I think we need to stick with Tshiunza @ 6 and Reffell @ 7 as these are two that have impressed highly, I see Lleyellyn should be fit for Cardiff on the weekend, maybe worth drafting him in for a look too, him and Grady in the centres would be Gatgasmic.

Llewelyn has been playing well and with him, Grady, Kieran Williams, Hawkins and Tompkins, thats not a bad selection of players who could form the basis of our midfield for the next few years. Both Llewelyn and Grady seem to have some footballing ability in addition to being sizeable, so plenty to like there.

[Sandydragon]

Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Ioan Lloyd has got a real skillset, but he would probably make an international coach nervous. Cracking player to bring off the bench though when a game opens up a bit.

Jonny Williams is a decent player, just needs to stay fit.

Botham did well and was developing nicely. But as you say, our back row riches make the future less certain for him with Wales.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I can see Tshiunza taking over from Faletau one day, which would open the 6 spot up again.

[Sandydragon]

I can see Tshiunza taking over from Faletau one day, which would open the 6 spot up again.

Wainwright is another contender for 8 or 6 depending on game plan.

[Tuco Ramirez]

[/quote]

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)
[/quote]

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

[Puja]

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

[pompey-zebra]

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

You're both probably right, in that Holmes was never likely to set the world alight, he just looked like a competent back three player, and a useful squad member. He did hit a vein of form for the Dragons at one point but that didnt lead to the recognition that some people expected it too. As said above, if Pivac wasnt picking Holmes when he was playing well, then he never was.
The problem is now that Wales still doesn't have many alternatives to the established players in the back three. Our options seem to be play Williams ot halfpenny ( if he's ever fit to play) at 15, or move Adams or LRZ to FB and put cuthbert on the wing. All it needs is a couple more injuries to those, and we're almost picking names out of a hat from regional players. Holmes, mcnicholl, lloyd etc might not have been top class players, but we've got to pick someone.

[Sandydragon]

(Out of interest, which players do you think Pivac should have developed more? Jonah Holmes is the obvious one for me . . .)

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

For about two seasons he was the standout back for the Dragons, even when the rest of the team was being stuffed. He deserved an opportunity based on club form.

[Sandydragon]

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

You're both probably right, in that Holmes was never likely to set the world alight, he just looked like a competent back three player, and a useful squad member. He did hit a vein of form for the Dragons at one point but that didnt lead to the recognition that some people expected it too. As said above, if Pivac wasnt picking Holmes when he was playing well, then he never was.
The problem is now that Wales still doesn't have many alternatives to the established players in the back three. Our options seem to be play Williams ot halfpenny ( if he's ever fit to play) at 15, or move Adams or LRZ to FB and put cuthbert on the wing. All it needs is a couple more injuries to those, and we're almost picking names out of a hat from regional players. Holmes, mcnicholl, lloyd etc might not have been top class players, but we've got to pick someone.

Angus O Brian is a good full back but is another who seems to be overlooked. To be fair there was a FB at Ospreys who got overlooked for years (name totally escapes me) so some coaches just have their preferences.

Gatland didn’t really give Gareth Delve an opportunity it y when actually fit, although injuries were a regular feature so more inderstandable

[pompey-zebra]

Angus O Brian is a good full back but is another who seems to be overlooked. To be fair there was a FB at Ospreys who got overlooked for years (name totally escapes me) so some coaches just have their preferences.

Gatland didn’t really give Gareth Delve an opportunity it y when actually fit, although injuries were a regular feature so more inderstandable

O'Brien's back.in the Dragons squad for the Leinster game this weekend. Tough game to make a comeback but a good performance wouldn't harm his chances. I think there'd have to be a couple of injuries in the back three in the squad before Gatland calls anyone else in. But as there's not many proven alternatives to the regulars, he's got a good a chance as any.

Unless of course the call goes out for any ex- international 15's who havent been capped in the last three years and might have a Welsh granny...

[Numbers]

Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Ioan Lloyd has got a real skillset, but he would probably make an international coach nervous. Cracking player to bring off the bench though when a game opens up a bit.

Jonny Williams is a decent player, just needs to stay fit.

Botham did well and was developing nicely. But as you say, our back row riches make the future less certain for him with Wales.

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

[pompey-zebra]

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

I think Bristol play Lloyd as a centre these days when they do play him.
Is Nagy, Welsh qualified? I assume he is by now by residency if not by ancestry.( I'm sure he's English born and Nagy sounds like a Hungarian name to me).
I'd forgotten about Evans, he was playing well at one point. There again, I forgot about Patchell when I was talking about options at 15, and he's already in the squad!

[Numbers]

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

I think Bristol play Lloyd as a centre these days when they do play him.
Is Nagy, Welsh qualified? I assume he is by now by residency if not by ancestry.( I'm sure he's English born and Nagy sounds like a Hungarian name to me).
I'd forgotten about Evans, he was playing well at one point. There again, I forgot about Patchell when I was talking about options at 15, and he's already in the squad!

Lloyd has played 12 a few times, unfortunately with Radradra there he's had few opportunities, maybe next season when Semi has gone he'll get a run of games.

Nagy has been playing at Swansea since 2019 so should be Welsh qualified if he's interested in playing for Wales.

[Sandydragon]

Gatland had his core squad and only relatively belatedly tried to expand his player base's international experience ( I'm sure I read somewhere that Gatland capped more players in his last 2 to 3 years than in all the others, but I wouldn't put my house on that!)
Pivac selected a lot of players but I'm still not sure what style of play he wanted from them. There were some successes ( eg LRZ, Rowlands, Tompkins) but others never seemed to stay fit long enough to have a run. Remember that awful European nations cup thing? Some of the plus points of that were players like Shane Lewis hughes, james botham and Jonny Williams, all of whom might have become team regulars bar for injury. In the case of SLH, and Botham, they might struggle to fight their way back in given the depth we have at 6 & 7 ( although admittedly they're still young). Then there were the likes of Ioan lloyd and tom Rogers, who seemed to come and go without much impact. And as for Holmes if pivac wasnt going to pick him.when he was in form and covered a position where we had little depth (fb), then he probably didn't have much of an international future.

Ioan Lloyd has got a real skillset, but he would probably make an international coach nervous. Cracking player to bring off the bench though when a game opens up a bit.

Jonny Williams is a decent player, just needs to stay fit.

Botham did well and was developing nicely. But as you say, our back row riches make the future less certain for him with Wales.

Unfortunately Ioan Lloyd seems to have fallen out of favour at Bristol, he's hardly played this season from what I've seen, Max Nagy at the Ospreys is a big lad who's good under the high ball, he could be one to watch (the Osprey you mentioned had been overlooked later in this thread is Dan Evans btw).

Thanks mate, just couldn't remember his name

[Numbers]

LRZ on the bench for Glos tonight, Lloyd is on the bench for Bristol as well, he played on the wing in their last game but didn't feature at all in the games prior to that, perhaps he's been injured.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Jonah Holmes is 31 and a bit of a carthorse imho

I have to say I agree - was baffled by people singing his praises in this thread, as he was only ever a decent, hard-working Prem player for Leicester and I was pleasantly surprised that he did get international recognition. I'm startled that people would see him as a missed opportunity for something great as an international.

Puja

For about two seasons he was the standout back for the Dragons, even when the rest of the team was being stuffed. He deserved an opportunity based on club form.

Sure, Holmes was not going to be the first name on the teamsheet but he never looked out of place at test level and had a wide range of skills. He has been (or possibly still is) our 5th or 6th best back three player IMO, so should have been used a lot more given injuries to LRZ, Sanjay and Halfpenny.

[pompey-zebra]

LRZ looked good last night for Glaws, which is one positive at least.

[Son of Mathonwy]

LRZ looked good last night for Glaws, which is one positive at least.

It's safe to say he's fit again!

[Sandydragon]

LRZ looked good last night for Glaws, which is one positive at least.

It's safe to say he's fit again!

Definitely. Tidy return for him

[Buggaluggs]

I'd rather we didn't play him, but figured out how to attack defenses other than 'give it to Zammit'

[francoisfou]

Bonjour to my friends in red! I hope your players manage to resolve their claims in the next day or so because they must be looking forward to taking on a disjointed England team (even though your team is not exactly on top form!) before trips to Rome and the Stade de France!