New Zealand v Italy (Fri/Sat)

[Lizard]

Massive comedy potential here. Even a win doesn't guarantee NZ will get out of the pool.

[BaldiePete]

Massive comedy potential here. Even a win doesn't guarantee NZ will get out of the pool.

The comedy is that NZ appear to be shitting themselves that they might lose to Italy, a team who have won 2 games in the 6N in the last 10 years. They’re really not very good, you’ll easily win by more than 20 points.

[Puja]

Massive comedy potential here. Even a win doesn't guarantee NZ will get out of the pool.

The comedy is that NZ appear to be shitting themselves that they might lose to Italy, a team who have won 2 games in the 6N in the last 10 years. They’re really not very good, you’ll easily win by more than 20 points.

They are also the team that matched France away and pushed them to the last minute in this year's 6N - I know a close defeat is the same as any other defeat, but they did better against them than New Zealand did, and they are certainly capable of getting up for a one-off game. New Zealand should win this 9 times from 10, but Italy are improving rapidly under Crowley and they do have a chance, even if only a slim one.

Puja

[J Dory]

NZ team announced:

15 Beauden Barrett, 14 Will Jordan, 13 Rieko Ioane, 12 Jordie Barrett, 11 Mark Telea, 10 Richie Mo’unga, 9 Aaron Smith; 8 Ardie Savea (capt), 7 Dalton Papalii, 6 Shannon Frizell, 5 Scott Barrett, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Nepo Laulala, 2 Codie Taylor, 1 Ofa Tu’ungafasi. Reserves: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Tamaiti Williams, 18 Tyrel Lomax, 19 Sam Whitelock, 20 Sam Cane, 21 Cam Roigard, 22 Damian McKenzie, 23 Anton Lienert-Brown.

[Lizard]

All Blacks: Beauden Barrett, Will Jordan, Rieko Ioane, Jordie Barrett, Mark Telea, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea (capt), Dalton Papalii, Shannon Frizell, Scott Barrett, Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Codie Taylor, Ofa Tuungafasi.

Reserves: Dane Coles, Tamaiti Williams, Tyrel Lomax, Sam Whitelock, Sam Cane, Cam Roigard, Damian McKenzie, Anton Lienert-Brown.

[J Dory]

jinx

and here's italy

15 Tommaso Allan, 14 Ange Capuozzo, 13 Juan Ignacio Brex, 12 Luca Morisi, 11 Montanna Ioane, 10 Paolo Garbisi, 9 Stephen Varney; 8 Lorenzo Cannone, 7 Michele Lamaro (captain), 6 Sebastian Negri, 5 Federico Ruzza, 4 Dino Lamb, 3 Marco Riccioni, 2 Giacomo Nicotera, 1 Danilo Fisichetti. Reserves: 16 Hame Faiva, 17 Ivan Nemer, 18 Simone Ferrari, 19 Niccolo Cannone, 20 Manuel Zuliani, 21 Toa Halafihi, 22 Martin Page-Relo, 23 Paolo Odogwu.

[Lizard]

Massive comedy potential here. Even a win doesn't guarantee NZ will get out of the pool.

The comedy is that NZ appear to be shitting themselves that they might lose to Italy, a team who have won 2 games in the 6N in the last 10 years. They’re really not very good, you’ll easily win by more than 20 points.

I don’t think anyone is shitting themselves, just recognising that a win is not the inevitability it used to be. NZ fans also used to have a simple 2 category system to work with: we might lose to the Boks, Aussie, England every so often, and France. Everyone else was in the “we always win” category - we didn’t need to worry about the relative strengths of, say, Fiji v Argentina v Italy. There was no “banana-skin” concept. They were all in the same category. Losses to Ireland and especially Argentina have blown that simple world view up. So the All Blacks supporter subconscious says “if the Pumas can beat us, why not Italy - they are the same category of opponent.” We are just learning to see in shades of nuanced grey rather than black and white as to who is actually a threat.

I’m glad Jordie is playing. He got 4 tries in his last (only?) test v Italy.

[BaldiePete]

I know you’re coming off two bad results but the loss of confidence by AB supporters is astonishing and something I struggle to get my head around. As a Scotsman I’m used to expecting my team to fuck up but to see it from Kiwis is extraordinary. The AB team selected should comfortably beat Italy and if that same team had been picked for a match before the RWC you’d have expected to stick at least 40 points on them.

[Sourdust]

I don’t think anyone is shitting themselves, just recognising that a win is not the inevitability it used to be. NZ fans also used to have a simple 2 category system to work with: we might lose to the Boks, Aussie, England every so often, and France. Everyone else was in the “we always win” category - we didn’t need to worry about the relative strengths of, say, Fiji v Argentina v Italy. There was no “banana-skin” concept. They were all in the same category. Losses to Ireland and especially Argentina have blown that simple world view up. So the All Blacks supporter subconscious says “if the Pumas can beat us, why not Italy - they are the same category of opponent.” We are just learning to see in shades of nuanced grey rather than black and white as to who is actually a threat.

This is a really interesting perspective.

I've often asked Kiwi fans the question, "What's it like to support a team that never loses?", which I realize is impossible to answer, but it's just to show how weird it seems to most other fans to imagine having that level of confidence in your team. Now that the aura has SLIGHTLY slipped it's fascinating to see AB fans grappling with the concept of actual jeopardy. On rare occasions we've seen the reactions to the FACT of defeat (2007 in particular lives long in the memory) but never before have we really witnessed the presence of nervousness and doubt BEFORE matches - maybe it was there all the time, you just hid it extremely well!

[Lizard]

Nope. It’s completely new. Like I said, they’re used to be two settings as an AB fan:

1. We will probably win but might not (v SA, Aust, Eng, Fra, Lions)

2. We will definitely win, no question (everyone else).

That’s all fucked now and I don’t like it. If I wanted to watch a New Zealand team that can be beaten by anybody on their day, I’d watch cricket.

[BaldiePete]

Massive comedy potential here. Even a win doesn't guarantee NZ will get out of the pool.

The comedy is that NZ appear to be shitting themselves that they might lose to Italy, a team who have won 2 games in the 6N in the last 10 years. They’re really not very good, you’ll easily win by more than 20 points.

As I said.

[Spiffy]

The ABs enjoying a nice little un-opposed training run.

[morepork]

The ABs enjoying a nice little un-opposed training run.

Yep. Not great prep for France, SA, Ireland. That being said, the ABs should take it home with a strap on. With studs on it.

[Donny osmond]

Well NZ are looking v good. Italy are looking shite it has to be said, but even so NZ will be living this.

[bruce]

ABs throwing their name back in the hat.

[paddy no 11]

Like they just flicked a switch

[bruce]

McKenzie is a fun player to have coming on against a tired defence.

[Lizard]

ABs throwing their name back in the hat.

Italy are barely trying now. This is good but let's not read too much into it.

Nice of Roigard not to fuck another one up.

[bruce]

Still no one has done this to Italy for a good long while

[bruce]

Clothesline ignored

[Donny osmond]

Nope. It’s completely new. Like I said, they’re used to be two settings as an AB fan:

1. We will probably win but might not (v SA, Aust, Eng, Fra, Lions)

2. We will definitely win, no question (everyone else).

That’s all fucked now and I don’t like it. If I wanted to watch a New Zealand team that can be beaten by anybody on their day, I’d watch cricket.

So it'll be interesting to see if this change in psychology affects the team when they play one of the big teams in the quarters or semis. If its NZ v Ire in the knockouts, is it going to be the blacks who are beaten in the head before the game kicks off in the same way, for so many years, other teams were beaten in the head before playing the blacks?

[Lizard]

I suspect the Kiwi psyche will see this as pretty good performance against very weak opposition (look at the scrum & line out stats). So positive but not necessarily outweighing the last couple of years.

What I think will be interesting is how France react v Italy. Will they look to match the All Blacks, or keep the powder dry for the QFs.

[canta_brian]

Is it wrong that I’m pissed off we didn’t get to 100?

[morepork]

Is it wrong that I’m pissed off we didn’t get to 100?

No.

[UKHamlet]

And *click*