gaza conflict

[Puja]

A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67320715

Should be bigger next week though.

The Police:

“Our message to organisers is clear: please, we ask you to urgently reconsider. It is not appropriate to hold any protests in London this weekend.”

Suella Braverman:

“The hate marchers need to understand that decent British people have had enough of these displays of thuggish intimidation and extremism.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

Braverman really is a human bag of dog shit, isn't she? A walking, talking, Sun headline, with about as much depth to her. I never thought anyone could be more spiteful and hate-filled than Priti Patel, but the Tory party just keeps on demonstrating that there's always deeper depths to plumb.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67320715

Should be bigger next week though.

The Police:

“Our message to organisers is clear: please, we ask you to urgently reconsider. It is not appropriate to hold any protests in London this weekend.”

Suella Braverman:

“The hate marchers need to understand that decent British people have had enough of these displays of thuggish intimidation and extremism.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

Braverman really is a human bag of dog shit, isn't she? A walking, talking, Sun headline, with about as much depth to her. I never thought anyone could be more spiteful and hate-filled than Priti Patel, but the Tory party just keeps on demonstrating that there's always deeper depths to plumb.

Puja

Yup. And we are looking at the next Tory party leader there I reckon. She's only interested in appealing to party members (and doing a fine job of that). She doesn't care how many regular voters she puts off in the process, peddling her divisive shit.

[Sandydragon]

A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67320715

Should be bigger next week though.

The Police:

“Our message to organisers is clear: please, we ask you to urgently reconsider. It is not appropriate to hold any protests in London this weekend.”

Suella Braverman:

“The hate marchers need to understand that decent British people have had enough of these displays of thuggish intimidation and extremism.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

[Son of Mathonwy]

A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67320715

Should be bigger next week though.

The Police:

“Our message to organisers is clear: please, we ask you to urgently reconsider. It is not appropriate to hold any protests in London this weekend.”

Suella Braverman:

“The hate marchers need to understand that decent British people have had enough of these displays of thuggish intimidation and extremism.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

The Gaza ceasefire march is on Saturday, the veterans' parade is on Sunday - what is the problem?

As for the possibility of desecrating the Cenotaph - the march doesn't go near it. The march a couple of weeks back did, but as we all passed the cenotaph not one of us thought to desecrate it.

This is a march against the policy of a foreign government - it's not remotely aimed at dead soldiers or British war veterans (I would hope many war veterans would also welcome an end to the killing too). To suggest that Saturdays' marchers would have anything against Sunday's paraders, or vice versa, seems to me to be looking for division, seeking to stir it up, where there should be none.

And It really isn't for the police to tell us whether a protest is 'appropriate' or not.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Great to see that the police won't be using their powers to ban the march, despite pretty disgraceful pressure from the government. I guess this demonstrates the waning power of an outgoing government. Met chief Mark Rowley knows the the Tories won't be around when it comes to deciding if he should be reappointed, nor will they be handing out too many more honours in future, so he was more free to do the right thing.

Great also to see the organizer of the Cenotaph event accepting that the two events would not interfere with each other. (Being on different days helps.)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... t-believes

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... on-rallies

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... n-go-ahead

[Which Tyler]

Probably fits better here:

I see the neo-nazis are going to gather at the cenotaph to defend the "true meaning of armistice day" and defend the memorial against those calling for peace.
Whilst being supported by the "Party of Churchill".

All whilst at the wrong place and the wrong time.
I'm sure London's Jewish community will also feel so much safer, knowing the the neo-nazis have their back...

My irony filter may just blow a fuse.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/far-right-groups-call-on-supporters-to-oppose-pro-palestine-march-on-armistice-day

[Son of Mathonwy]

Probably fits better here:

I see the neo-nazis are going to gather at the cenotaph to defend the "true meaning of armistice day" and defend the memorial against those calling for peace.
Whilst being supported by the "Party of Churchill".

All whilst at the wrong place and the wrong time.
I'm sure London's Jewish community will also feel so much safer, knowing the the neo-nazis have their back...

My irony filter may just blow a fuse.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/far-right-groups-call-on-supporters-to-oppose-pro-palestine-march-on-armistice-day

Steve Barclay:

The government thinks it is provocative to have these marches on Saturday, on Armistice Day; it is a very sacred day where the whole country comes together to remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to give us the freedom to protest, the freedom to express different views the rest of the year.

Barclay seems to be saying that millions gave their lives to give us the freedom to protest on every day of the year other than Armistice Day. On Armistice Day we should celebrate this sacrifice by NOT having the freedom to protest.

In the face of all this obvious bullshit and dogwhistling, I'd love them to spell out what it is they really don't like about the Gaza ceasefire march. What is their actual problem with it??

[Which Tyler]

Presumably, Barclay thinks it would be much better to hold it on Sunday - AKA Remembrance Sunday, and the same day there are official events at the Cenotaph.
Somehow, I'm doubtful.

[paddy no 11]

A lot of people in Trafalgar Square. I just got back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67320715

Should be bigger next week though.

The Police:

“Our message to organisers is clear: please, we ask you to urgently reconsider. It is not appropriate to hold any protests in London this weekend.”

Suella Braverman:

“The hate marchers need to understand that decent British people have had enough of these displays of thuggish intimidation and extremism.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

Why is it likely that some Palestinians will break off?

Why not so it's very likely that right wing violent thugs will attack the pro palestinian march

[Sandydragon]

The Police:


Suella Braverman:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

Why is it likely that some Palestinians will break off?

Why not so it's very likely that right wing violent thugs will attack the pro palestinian march

Equally possible.

[Sandydragon]

The Police:


Suella Braverman:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

The Gaza ceasefire march is on Saturday, the veterans' parade is on Sunday - what is the problem?

As for the possibility of desecrating the Cenotaph - the march doesn't go near it. The march a couple of weeks back did, but as we all passed the cenotaph not one of us thought to desecrate it.

This is a march against the policy of a foreign government - it's not remotely aimed at dead soldiers or British war veterans (I would hope many war veterans would also welcome an end to the killing too). To suggest that Saturdays' marchers would have anything against Sunday's paraders, or vice versa, seems to me to be looking for division, seeking to stir it up, where there should be none.

And It really isn't for the police to tell us whether a protest is 'appropriate' or not.

Saturday is the 11th, but I had got my days mixed up when I first responded to this and thought the 11th was the Sunday.

I’d prefer that the 11th was marked more than it is but since we don’t then I’ve no objection to the march on the Saturday.


Sadly not everyone thinks like you do, but the cenotaph shouldn’t be a problem given the lack of proximity.


I think the police are well within their rights to ask a protest not to go ahead. Particularly if they know that counter protestors are likely to kick off on a particular weekend. There’s strong public support for this march
Not going ahead this weekend but entirely the organisers call if they want to turn off half of the population.

Incidentally the Met police is calling in over a thousand officers from other forces. That’s a lot of work that can’t be done across the country for a political march which can achieve nothing. Neither Israel or Hamas give a toss about what the UK thinks.

[Which Tyler]

Is that to police the peace march? The hooligan march? or the actual remembrance ceremony?

I'm also amazed that anyone thinks the chances of people calling for peace and literal hooligans and fascists are equally likely to fuck shit up.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

The Gaza ceasefire march is on Saturday, the veterans' parade is on Sunday - what is the problem?

As for the possibility of desecrating the Cenotaph - the march doesn't go near it. The march a couple of weeks back did, but as we all passed the cenotaph not one of us thought to desecrate it.

This is a march against the policy of a foreign government - it's not remotely aimed at dead soldiers or British war veterans (I would hope many war veterans would also welcome an end to the killing too). To suggest that Saturdays' marchers would have anything against Sunday's paraders, or vice versa, seems to me to be looking for division, seeking to stir it up, where there should be none.

And It really isn't for the police to tell us whether a protest is 'appropriate' or not.

Saturday is the 11th, but I had got my days mixed up when I first responded to this and thought the 11th was the Sunday.

I’d prefer that the 11th was marked more than it is but since we don’t then I’ve no objection to the march on the Saturday.


Sadly not everyone thinks like you do, but the cenotaph shouldn’t be a problem given the lack of proximity.


I think the police are well within their rights to ask a protest not to go ahead. Particularly if they know that counter protestors are likely to kick off on a particular weekend. There’s strong public support for this march
Not going ahead this weekend but entirely the organisers call if they want to turn off half of the population.

Incidentally the Met police is calling in over a thousand officers from other forces. That’s a lot of work that can’t be done across the country for a political march which can achieve nothing. Neither Israel or Hamas give a toss about what the UK thinks.

Fair enough.

The government and certain newspapers are making the most of people's confusion over Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure a lot of people still think the Gaza march might physically clash with the veterans' parade. That's no accident.

I think we'll have to disagree over whether it's right for the police to advise us on the appropriateness of protest. They've come to the right decision this time but under a different commissioner or a less weak government they could easily have interpreted the law differently. That power could make a 'request' from them less innocent. Do you think the police would even have made that public request had they not been under such political pressure?

This is not a 'march which can achieve nothing'. It's not pointless. Yes, Israel and Hamas don't particularly care about it but they do (or certainly Israel does) care what the UK government says. We are an important part of Israel's support network in the international community (and an influence on the US) and Israel would be very worried if we were to suddenly take the UN line and push for them to end the occupation. This march puts pressure on the UK government to do that. It will not change the mind of a Tory government but it might influence a Labour government (or non-Tory coalition). (It also shows them more generally that voters do care about human rights and lives, even in other countries - that's a good thing in itself). It's a long shot and a long road but there's a chance of success. It's not a waste of time.

[Which Tyler]

https://news.sky.com/story/fighting-rep ... h-13005216

Clashes at the Cenotaph this morning - you'll never guess whether this is triggered by those marching for peace (away from the Cenotaph), or those self-identifying as hooligans and neo-nazis...
Also worth noting, our Home Secretary only wants one of those demonstrations banned.

[Sandydragon]

The Gaza ceasefire march is on Saturday, the veterans' parade is on Sunday - what is the problem?

As for the possibility of desecrating the Cenotaph - the march doesn't go near it. The march a couple of weeks back did, but as we all passed the cenotaph not one of us thought to desecrate it.

This is a march against the policy of a foreign government - it's not remotely aimed at dead soldiers or British war veterans (I would hope many war veterans would also welcome an end to the killing too). To suggest that Saturdays' marchers would have anything against Sunday's paraders, or vice versa, seems to me to be looking for division, seeking to stir it up, where there should be none.

And It really isn't for the police to tell us whether a protest is 'appropriate' or not.

Saturday is the 11th, but I had got my days mixed up when I first responded to this and thought the 11th was the Sunday.

I’d prefer that the 11th was marked more than it is but since we don’t then I’ve no objection to the march on the Saturday.


Sadly not everyone thinks like you do, but the cenotaph shouldn’t be a problem given the lack of proximity.


I think the police are well within their rights to ask a protest not to go ahead. Particularly if they know that counter protestors are likely to kick off on a particular weekend. There’s strong public support for this march
Not going ahead this weekend but entirely the organisers call if they want to turn off half of the population.

Incidentally the Met police is calling in over a thousand officers from other forces. That’s a lot of work that can’t be done across the country for a political march which can achieve nothing. Neither Israel or Hamas give a toss about what the UK thinks.

Fair enough.

The government and certain newspapers are making the most of people's confusion over Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure a lot of people still think the Gaza march might physically clash with the veterans' parade. That's no accident.

I think we'll have to disagree over whether it's right for the police to advise us on the appropriateness of protest. They've come to the right decision this time but under a different commissioner or a less weak government they could easily have interpreted the law differently. That power could make a 'request' from them less innocent. Do you think the police would even have made that public request had they not been under such political pressure?

This is not a 'march which can achieve nothing'. It's not pointless. Yes, Israel and Hamas don't particularly care about it but they do (or certainly Israel does) care what the UK government says. We are an important part of Israel's support network in the international community (and an influence on the US) and Israel would be very worried if we were to suddenly take the UN line and push for them to end the occupation. This march puts pressure on the UK government to do that. It will not change the mind of a Tory government but it might influence a Labour government (or non-Tory coalition). (It also shows them more generally that voters do care about human rights and lives, even in other countries - that's a good thing in itself). It's a long shot and a long road but there's a chance of success. It's not a waste of time.

I don’t think the Israeli government are that bothered by the British governments opinion at this time. They can’t not act. The fact they are playing into Hamas and Iranian hands makes the whole thing additionally horrific, but they can’t just sit back and do nothing. I don’t think any government would do nothing following such a terrorist outrage.

My hope is that Netanyahu and Hamas are no longer running anything when the dust settles and leaders who take a 2 state solution seriously are at the helm.

[Sandydragon]

Is that to police the peace march? The hooligan march? or the actual remembrance ceremony?

I'm also amazed that anyone thinks the chances of people calling for peace and literal hooligans and fascists are equally likely to fuck shit up.

Everything. I agree about the hooliganism scum currently throwing objects at the police near the cenotaph. But not everyone on the pro Palestinian March is calling for peace and harmony. It’s a tiny minority who support Hamas but they are present.

[paddy no 11]

In from March in cork today good crowd at it

[Which Tyler]

I don’t think any government would do nothing following such a terrorist outrage.

I'm no expert, but I'm led to believe that there's a reasonable amount of wriggle room between "nothing" and "multiple war crimes"

Everything. I agree about the hooliganism scum currently throwing objects at the police near the cenotaph. But not everyone on the pro Palestinian March is calling for peace and harmony. It’s a tiny minority who support Hamas but they are present.

I believe the current score is 92 arrests of the statue protectors, versus 2 of the peace marchers.
I don't think anyone ever denied the existence of people supporting Hamas.

"Equal"

[paddy no 11]

The Police:


Suella Braverman:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... -in-london

It seems that, in the view of the Government, a march calling for peace is contradictory to the sentiment of Remembrance Day.

I'd suggest the issue the police are worried about is the potential for some elements in the Palestinian support march breaking off to make trouble at the cenotaph. That risk certainly exists, bearing in mind that some poppy sellers have had abuse from pro-Palestinian protestors over the last week or so. Given the number of veterans who parade, that in itself is a major police operation, and a large pro-Palestinian march would stretch those resources still further.

The police have asked nicely but they don't seem to be taking the step of banning the march; its hardly undemocratic of them to ask nicely to rearrange a march to keep London moving on a busy weekend. And a more mature approach than the Home Secretary seems capable of.

Why is it likely that some Palestinians will break off?

Why not so it's very likely that right wing violent thugs will attack the pro palestinian march

Oh quelle surprise, this is exactly what happened, nobody could have predicted that

[Son of Mathonwy]

In from March in cork today good crowd at it

Back from the London march, loads of people there, very good natured. Very lightly policed too - which shows how much they were worried about us causing problems. The heaviest police presence we saw was outside a pub called (and of course this could just be a coincidence) the White Swan. Inside there were four or five furious looking, middle aged guys staring at us. That's as close as we got to disorder.

On yeah there was a lone guy in a tweed hat, tweed suit, tweed everything, holding an English flag and wearing an Israel badge and a poppy. He looked unhappy.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Saturday is the 11th, but I had got my days mixed up when I first responded to this and thought the 11th was the Sunday.

I’d prefer that the 11th was marked more than it is but since we don’t then I’ve no objection to the march on the Saturday.


Sadly not everyone thinks like you do, but the cenotaph shouldn’t be a problem given the lack of proximity.


I think the police are well within their rights to ask a protest not to go ahead. Particularly if they know that counter protestors are likely to kick off on a particular weekend. There’s strong public support for this march
Not going ahead this weekend but entirely the organisers call if they want to turn off half of the population.

Incidentally the Met police is calling in over a thousand officers from other forces. That’s a lot of work that can’t be done across the country for a political march which can achieve nothing. Neither Israel or Hamas give a toss about what the UK thinks.

Fair enough.

The government and certain newspapers are making the most of people's confusion over Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure a lot of people still think the Gaza march might physically clash with the veterans' parade. That's no accident.

I think we'll have to disagree over whether it's right for the police to advise us on the appropriateness of protest. They've come to the right decision this time but under a different commissioner or a less weak government they could easily have interpreted the law differently. That power could make a 'request' from them less innocent. Do you think the police would even have made that public request had they not been under such political pressure?

This is not a 'march which can achieve nothing'. It's not pointless. Yes, Israel and Hamas don't particularly care about it but they do (or certainly Israel does) care what the UK government says. We are an important part of Israel's support network in the international community (and an influence on the US) and Israel would be very worried if we were to suddenly take the UN line and push for them to end the occupation. This march puts pressure on the UK government to do that. It will not change the mind of a Tory government but it might influence a Labour government (or non-Tory coalition). (It also shows them more generally that voters do care about human rights and lives, even in other countries - that's a good thing in itself). It's a long shot and a long road but there's a chance of success. It's not a waste of time.

I don’t think the Israeli government are that bothered by the British governments opinion at this time. They can’t not act. The fact they are playing into Hamas and Iranian hands makes the whole thing additionally horrific, but they can’t just sit back and do nothing. I don’t think any government would do nothing following such a terrorist outrage.

My hope is that Netanyahu and Hamas are no longer running anything when the dust settles and leaders who take a 2 state solution seriously are at the helm.

Them not being that bothered about UK government's opinion at this time would not make the march pointless. Although (and this is the height of fantasy) imagine the reaction from Israel if Sunak called for them to give back the occupied territories. Imagine that reaction and tell me if that is someone not being that bothered.

As for the doing nothing thing. As Which Tyler suggests there are many options for doing something. Not all of them are war crimes. I'm sure you can imagine a better reaction they could have had.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Well done the Labour rebels voting (and in some cases resigning) for a Gaza ceasefire. Why Starmer can't bring himself to do this is a mystery to me. I think the reason given for not calling for a ceasefire is that Israel must be able to respond to Hamas's actions. What Hamas did was appalling. However, what Israel is doing is worse (unless we consider the value of a Palestinian life to be substantially less than that of an Israeli), so cannot be supported by anyone unbiased.

But, more generally, support for Israel over its actions in the occupied territories always mystifies me. To put it simply, Israel is doing 95% of the killing and 100% of the occupying, so how can it be supported?

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/is ... west-bank/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-starmers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -ceasefire

[paddy no 11]

Well done the Labour rebels voting (and in some cases resigning) for a Gaza ceasefire. Why Starmer can't bring himself to do this is a mystery to me. I think the reason given for not calling for a ceasefire is that Israel must be able to respond to Hamas's actions. What Hamas did was appalling. However, what Israel is doing is worse (unless we consider the value of a Palestinian life to be substantially less than that of an Israeli), so cannot be supported by anyone unbiased.

But, more generally, support for Israel over its actions in the occupied territories always mystifies me. To put it simply, Israel is doing 95% of the killing and 100% of the occupying, so how can it be supported?

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/is ... west-bank/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-starmers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -ceasefire

This thing is so fucked I can't remember the circumstances as to how 30k Palestinians were killed in 2018, living through this horrendous cycles of violence as a child............

What will the 2023 figure be 100k?

[Son of Mathonwy]

Well done the Labour rebels voting (and in some cases resigning) for a Gaza ceasefire. Why Starmer can't bring himself to do this is a mystery to me. I think the reason given for not calling for a ceasefire is that Israel must be able to respond to Hamas's actions. What Hamas did was appalling. However, what Israel is doing is worse (unless we consider the value of a Palestinian life to be substantially less than that of an Israeli), so cannot be supported by anyone unbiased.

But, more generally, support for Israel over its actions in the occupied territories always mystifies me. To put it simply, Israel is doing 95% of the killing and 100% of the occupying, so how can it be supported?

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/is ... west-bank/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-starmers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -ceasefire

This thing is so fucked I can't remember the circumstances as to how 30k Palestinians were killed in 2018, living through this horrendous cycles of violence as a child............

What will the 2023 figure be 100k?

No, it's not that bad (I thought that at first), the red bars are the injured. The deaths are much lower.

However, this year is going off the scale.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Well done the Labour rebels voting (and in some cases resigning) for a Gaza ceasefire. Why Starmer can't bring himself to do this is a mystery to me. I think the reason given for not calling for a ceasefire is that Israel must be able to respond to Hamas's actions. What Hamas did was appalling. However, what Israel is doing is worse (unless we consider the value of a Palestinian life to be substantially less than that of an Israeli), so cannot be supported by anyone unbiased.

But, more generally, support for Israel over its actions in the occupied territories always mystifies me. To put it simply, Israel is doing 95% of the killing and 100% of the occupying, so how can it be supported?

https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/is ... west-bank/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... r-starmers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -ceasefire

He’s not going to say boo, nor will he do squat because that’s his strategy. Don’t say anything, don’t do anything, don’t alienate anyone. If he comes out in support of the Palestinians, it’ll be “oh, what’s with the anti-semitism, Kier?” If he supports Israel, it’ll be “oh, what, you support an Apartheid state while hating on Muslims?” Homeboy saw what happened to Jez, he was there. If he stays quiet, you can’t pin shit to him.

Agreed. It's sad that he can't make a principled stand on something. Just say what you stand for, why you stand for it, keep explaining why. Yes, some people will be alienated but fuck them, seriously someone needs to challenge their views.

This will ruin Starmer in the end. He'll have no foundation. One reasonable sounding Tory is all that it will take to beat him in 2029, coz no one will ever have voted for him, just against the Tories.