Blairites staging a coup...

[Zhivago]

Devils advocate:

But saddam was a dictator who was perfectly happy to murder his own people. We were also spending millions each year keeping him bottled up, Operations Resinate North and South. An affection for the Iraqi people would be a justification for removing a tyrant.

Obviously the follow on pint is why not dozens of other nations? No argument there as such, but I can easily see an interventionist argument for invading Iraq.

Only someone so inured to the horrors of war would seriously make such an argument. The no fly zone worked, war meant something much much more intense and horrific.

Cost a fortune though and is that really a long term solution?

And the Iraq war was a long term solution? Look where it got us...

[Sandydragon]

Only someone so inured to the horrors of war would seriously make such an argument. The no fly zone worked, war meant something much much more intense and horrific.

Cost a fortune though and is that really a long term solution?

And the Iraq war was a long term solution? Look where it got us...

I could argue that was the result of a lack of planning following the invasion. Better planning could have yielded a better result. Other interventions have been more successful.

Regarding your earlier comment, war shouldn't be undertaken lightly, but there are sometimes worse options.

[Digby]

GMB supports Smith, Corbyn's camp claims the GMB is right wing or has right wing elements. The general public will perhaps not consider union men and women to be right wing, and thus the Corbyn camp is making yet another pitch for a resounding Conservative win in the next election, pillocks.

[Sandydragon]

If you are that far around the spectrum, then anyone is right wing. Or its a useful label to throw at anyone who disagrees with you.

I really don't think Corbyn is interested in winning the GE. All is wants is purity of protest and if Labour end up with a handful of MPs who are all ideologically pure then he will regard that as a resounding success. Moderate Labour MPs need to take control of their party again, although with the influx of new members, that chance seems to have gone for good. Either they hope the new members leave following GE humiliation or they move themselves.

Hobson's choice.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

If you are that far around the spectrum, then anyone is right wing. Or its a useful label to throw at anyone who disagrees with you.

I really don't think Corbyn is interested in winning the GE. All is wants is purity of protest and if Labour end up with a handful of MPs who are all ideologically pure then he will regard that as a resounding success. Moderate Labour MPs need to take control of their party again, although with the influx of new members, that chance seems to have gone for good. Either they hope the new members leave following GE humiliation or they move themselves.

Hobson's choice.

I think he does want to win. I think he's a true believer and has been all his life that the public only need hear the unfiltered truth of socialism in order to accept it as the way forward. He's bolstered in that view by performing at large rallies of people who agree with him. I suspect he thinks the polling information is a right wing plot. I also think that he'd rather make the case for what he believes in than trash it to accommodate the losers in his parliamentary party. Let's face it the left has never been particularly good at playing nicely with others and right now he's got the membership to hope that his sect need not try.

One thing he has got right though. The more yougo round and are seen in front of massive crowds, the more the general public will be prepared to at least give you a hearing.

[Sandydragon]

In the latest installment of 'Labour at war with itself, you just couldn't make it up', the Party HQ asked Corbyn and his team to wind its collective necks in. I think a win for him is almost certain, followed by a night of the long knives clear out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk

[Stooo]

In the latest installment of 'Labour at war with itself, you just couldn't make it up', the Party HQ asked Corbyn and his team to wind its collective necks in. I think a win for him is almost certain, followed by a night of the long knives clear out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk

And rightly so.

The PLP are as bad as the fucking tories. Essentially they are saying "STFU and be good little fucking plebs. We know better than you" to the membership.

Fuck them.

[Zhivago]

In the latest installment of 'Labour at war with itself, you just couldn't make it up', the Party HQ asked Corbyn and his team to wind its collective necks in. I think a win for him is almost certain, followed by a night of the long knives clear out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk

Tasteless metaphor to use.

[Sandydragon]

In the latest installment of 'Labour at war with itself, you just couldn't make it up', the Party HQ asked Corbyn and his team to wind its collective necks in. I think a win for him is almost certain, followed by a night of the long knives clear out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk

Tasteless metaphor to use.

Compared to the labelling of opponents by Corbyn et al, its not that out of order.

[Zhivago]

In the latest installment of 'Labour at war with itself, you just couldn't make it up', the Party HQ asked Corbyn and his team to wind its collective necks in. I think a win for him is almost certain, followed by a night of the long knives clear out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/j ... _hp_ref=uk

Tasteless metaphor to use.

Compared to the labelling of opponents by Corbyn et al, its not that out of order.

That they are right wing? It's not even remotely comparable.

[Sandydragon]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

[Digby]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

No doubt that Glorious Leader™ has got and enjoys having the trots.

[Zhivago]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

[Sandydragon]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory.

Well you would.

I think the sexist comments diced at female MPS who don't support Corbyn, plus most of the general shyte that his supporters throw out against anyone who isn't a true believer, is far worse than mentioning the night of the long knives. Perhaps you would be more comfortable with the term purge?

[Sandydragon]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

Depends on the sexist language being used does it not? Whilst on the subject, putting bricks through ha window very much is against the law. Apparently that is excusable by some of Corbyns supporters.

There isa rather disgusting side to some of Corbyns supporters which wants to drown out all reasonable discussion and justify its action. Most people can see that.

[Zhivago]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

Depends on the sexist language being used does it not? Whilst on the subject, putting bricks through ha window very much is against the law. Apparently that is excusable by some of Corbyns supporters.

There is a rather disgusting side to some of Corbyns supporters which wants to drown out all reasonable discussion and justify its action. Most people can see that.

Is it? As far as I've heard, it has been widely condemned, no? Unless you saw something that I didn't, in which case, I'd be interested to read about it.

As you can imagine, when you have hundreds of thousands of supporters, you are bound to get a few nutters, simply because of the sheer quantity. What is important is that anyone who acts in an unacceptable manner is condemned and they are expelled from the party. I assume you agree that it is not reasonable to blame Corbyn for the actions of his supporters?

[Stooo]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

Depends on the sexist language being used does it not? Whilst on the subject, putting bricks through ha window very much is against the law. Apparently that is excusable by some of Corbyns supporters.

There isa rather disgusting side to some of Corbyns supporters which wants to drown out all reasonable discussion and justify its action. Most people can see that.

It's not really on. But let's be honest in the grand scheme of things does it compare in anyway to the vindictive and mean campaign that the tories have waged against the poor, the sick and the disabled of this country?!

Some people think it's out of order to throw a brick through a window whilst finding it perfectly acceptable to cut services to people who need it which will ultimately.

They think it's ok to actively support a government that they KNOW is going to increase the poverty of some of the children in our society.

"ermmmmmaayyygawdddzzz some nasty people said some mean fings to me on da internetz and dat nasty "loony leftie" corbyn didn't personal go around and punch them for me"

Yeah? Well they and you (the person moaning) can fuck off!!



A few weeks back some NEC member was fake crying on ch4 saying that because wasn't allowed a secret ballot then bullying was being encouraged..... was it FUCK she was just scared of getting caught out voting against her membership wishes.

[Digby]

I sure the female labour MPs trolled by Corbyn supporters are complaining about being called Tories.

I find this piece quite illustrative.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-leaders ... ts-1515765

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

Depends on the sexist language being used does it not? Whilst on the subject, putting bricks through ha window very much is against the law. Apparently that is excusable by some of Corbyns supporters.

There isa rather disgusting side to some of Corbyns supporters which wants to drown out all reasonable discussion and justify its action. Most people can see that.

One can see what they admire in the support of the Glorious Leader™ for various terrorist organisations, including some who've directly attacked Britain.

[Stooo]

Yeah, I would also be very offended if I was accused of being a Tory. Calling people names is not against the law though, as far as I'm aware, so these public figures should just accept that if they support a particular sort of politics that negatively affects people's lives, then they might get called some names.

It's completely another thing for a public figure like Watson to be throwing around insulting labels though. He is in a position of responsibility and should act with more decorum.

Depends on the sexist language being used does it not? Whilst on the subject, putting bricks through ha window very much is against the law. Apparently that is excusable by some of Corbyns supporters.

There is a rather disgusting side to some of Corbyns supporters which wants to drown out all reasonable discussion and justify its action. Most people can see that.

Is it? As far as I've heard, it has been widely condemned, no? Unless you saw something that I didn't, in which case, I'd be interested to read about it.

As you can imagine, when you have hundreds of thousands of supporters, you are bound to get a few nutters, simply because of the sheer quantity. What is important is that anyone who acts in an unacceptable manner is condemned and they are expelled from the party. I assume you agree that it is not reasonable to blame Corbyn for the actions of his supporters?

Shhhhh the right can make up whatever they like about what "corbyn supporters" think?!

TBH it could have been absolutely ANYONE who did it.

[Zhivago]

The latest YouGov polls show that the Conservative lead over Labour has halved since last week, from 14 points to seven.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

The latest YouGov polls show that the Conservative lead over Labour has halved since last week, from 14 points to seven.

Just the 7 points?

[Zhivago]

The latest YouGov polls show that the Conservative lead over Labour has halved since last week, from 14 points to seven.

Just the 7 points?

Just halved in one week

[Digby]

Polling data also shows Labour as falling to their lowest poll ratings since before Kinnock, and that in a choice of who people want as leader out of May and Corbyn it goes May, Neither, Corbyn, or as it's being noted by the pollsters Corbyn is coming third in a two horse race.

[Digby]

Just seen the You Gov polls, many people were keen to take part it seems, so much so the % of answers noted was 101/100

[Sandydragon]

I wonder what those moderate MPs are thinking after reading this (taken from the Times).

Far-left figures ready to rejoin Labour
Lucy Fisher, Senior Political Correspondent
August 12 2016, 12:01am, The Times

Leading former figures in Militant have said that they want to rejoin Labour and form a new alliance if Jeremy Corbyn is re-elected as leader.

Dave Nellist, the former MP expelled from Labour in 1991 due to his support for the hard-left 1980s faction, said that he hoped to return to the party but added: “Not the Labour it is now but the Labour I hope it will become if Jeremy is re-elected.”

Mr Nellist, chairman of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition, posed the idea of far-left groups and individuals “reaffiliating” with Labour. He cited as a template the Co-operative Party, which stands candidates in conjunction with Labour at elections. Mr Nellist said that there could be a “new federal arrangement” under Mr Corbyn’s auspices if the right began to split away.

Peter Taaffe, another leading figure in Militant who was expelled from Labour in 1983, also said he wanted to rejoin Labour if Mr Corbyn were re-elected. He is now the general secretary of the Socialist Party.

Derek Hatton, the former deputy leader of Liverpool council in the 1980s who was a leading Militant figure and expelled in 1986, mused that he too might reapply to the party. “Would I rejoin? I don’t know, I might very well do,” he told The Times.

At present Labour rules ban members or supporters of rival parties from joining, so Mr Nellist and Mr Taaffe would have to quit their roles in far-left parties to have a prospect of signing up again.

Because both were expelled in the past, they would also need to secure permission to reapply to the party from Labour’s national executive committee (NEC).

There has been speculation that left-wing figures could try to alter the party’s membership rules, but Mr Corbyn’s team poured cold water on the idea last night, with a spokesman saying: “Jeremy fully supports the decision of conference and the NEC on the party’s rules on membership.”

It came as Unison, Britain’s second-largest trade union, endorsed Mr Corbyn yesterday. He is also being supported by Unite, the Communication Workers’ Union, and the rail unions Aslef and the TSSA, while Owen Smith, Mr Corbyn’s rival for the leadership, has won the backing of the GMB, the steelworkers’ union, Community, and Usdaw, the shopworkers’ union. As the leadership contest grows increasingly bitter, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, accused Mr Smith of smear tactics and mimicking Tory policies.

Yesterday Labour’s ruling body argued that a High Court judge was wrong when he ruled on Monday that new party members were entitled to vote in the leadership election.

The judge had overturned an NEC decision last month to bar 130,000 members who have signed up after January 12 from having an automatic ballot.

Iain McNicol, the party’s general secretary, asked the Court of Appeal to reinstate the NEC’s decision to impose the six-month “freeze date”. Lord Justice Beatson said he would aim to give judgment later today.

At a hustings event in Gateshead last night, Mr Corbyn, Mr Smith and the audience were plunged into darkness when the lights went out.

BLASTS FROM THE PAST

Dave Nellist, 64
Elected as a Labour MP in 1983, his career did not last long. One of only two MPs who openly supported the Trotskyite Militant Tendency, he was expelled from Labour in 1991. When he was elected Mr Nellist was given a windowless office to share with another newcomer, Tony Blair. After four weeks Mr Blair complained, was reallocated to a room with Gordon Brown and New Labour was born.

Derek Hatton, 68
Rose to prominence in the 1980s as the sharp-suited deputy leader of Liverpool city council. He spearheaded the Militant infiltration of the city’s Labour Party and set an illegal budget in 1985. Mr Hatton used a private hire cab company to deliver redundancy notices to 31,000 council workers, leading to denunciation from Neil Kinnock. The next year he was expelled.

Peter Taaffe, 74
General secretary of Militant from its formation in 1964 until it disbanded in 1992. When the Socialist Party was created from the embers of Militant in 1997, Mr Taaffe became its general secretary, a role he still holds.

Looks like there a growing number of people who want to take Labour back to the 1980s.