England U20 vs Bath

[Banquo]

Usually Prem / Europe comes first, U20 second, loans / Champ 3rd.

...that's what I was questioning, is that the right pecking order, not what the pecking order is.

There's an argument on both being as important. Game time, familiarity within champ / nat club, combined with playing against non-peers for (probably) the first time, but also that short turn around competitive cohesion required at international level in meaningful contests. The JWC certainly, but the U20 6 Nations is a good standard for these lads to learn in. There's the transition into adult rugby,. and also the next level of international rugby. I think both matter. Which has some splinters in the fence sitting.

I suppose them being loaned to champ / nat clubs, then coming out into the international fold (albeit U20s) then back to club is exactly what will happen IF they take the next step. That context switching familiarity and unfamiliaroty of environment.

Yep, probably no right answer, and probably player dependent. I guess where I'm a bit 'concerned' is that there are a host of (former) U20 intl players now in the 23/24 age bracket looking for games in the Champ, going on loan for a week or two, being pulled back etc. So something is wrong with the pathways imo...but I guess this isn't new news. Just struck me with Pollock being touted as the next big thing (and having played a fair bit of senior rugby with both Saints and Bedford)...until the next one...whether this is the best use of this year for him, and its an open question, cos I don't know the right answer.

[Epaminondas Pules]

U20s best Oxford Uni 44 v 5

In the side’s final warm-up game ahead of their opening game of the 2024 U20 Six Nations Championship against Italy (2 February), tries from Ben Redshaw, Ollie Spencer, Max Blinkhorn and Jacob Oliver, and braces from Ben Waghorn and Toby Cousins were met by a single Oxford score from captain Jack Glover.
-Tickets: England U20 Men v Wales
-Tickets: England U20 Men v Ireland
Fans didn’t have to wait long for an opening try; Henry Pollock found space to break through the Oxford defence after just one minute of play, and an offload to Waghorn on his left gave the outside centre space to coast his way to the try line.
Waghorn crossed for his second of the afternoon on the half hour mark. Scrum half Ben Douglas sniped from the base of a ruck, and with Oxford on the back foot England spread the ball wide and into space for the Harlequins man to dot down.
Three minutes later, Cousins was gifted an interception opportunity inside the opposition 22. With no second invitation required, the wing plucked the ball from the air and walked in under the sticks.
Oxford claimed their only try of the encounter at the hands of captain Glover, but not before England’s Redshaw got in on the scoring action. The Newcastle Falcon darted down the left wing after a break from Pollock on the half way line.
England U20 v Oxford University 130124
Oxford opened their second half account in better form, retaining possession inside England’s 22 and pressing in the close encounters. They found no way through to the whitewash, however, and it was England’s Spencer who scored the first try of the second forty.
It was Pollock who again provided the offload, this time from the base of a line out, to set up the replacement wing in the 47th minute.
With just over an hour gone, a Cousins break afforded Blinkhorn the opportunity for England’s sixth. The replacement scrum half gathered his teammate's chip from just outside the Oxford 22 to run in unopposed.
Replacement hooker Oliver was then shown a yellow card on the 70-minute mark for an illegal challenge in the ruck as Oxford continued to pressure England’s defence. But a turnover of possession left space on the right flank for Cousins to run.
The wing crossed for his second, before a returning Oliver closed England’s account with the final try of the afternoon from the base of a driving maul.
ENGLAND U20 MEN

15. Ioan Jones, 14. Toby Cousins, 13. Ben Waghorn, 12. Sean Kerr, 11. Ben Redshaw, 10. Rory Taylor, 9. Ben Douglas, 1. Cameron Miell, 2. Craig Wright, 3. Billy Sela, 4. Olamide Sodeke, 5. Junior Kpoku, 6. Finn Carnduff (C), 7. Henry Pollock, 8. Zach Carr
Replacements
16. Jacob Oliver, 17. Scott Kirk, 18. James Halliwell, 19. Joe Bailey, 20. Jack Bennett, 21. Max Blinkhorn, 22. Kane James, 23. Josh Bellamy, 24. Malelili Satala, 25. Ollie Spencer

[Margin_Walker]

[Epaminondas Pules]

Cousins really is rapid!!!

[Margin_Walker]

Cousins really is rapid!!!

Yeah, he's properly quick. Remember one of the tries he scored in the Academy League final last year when he went the long way round and easily burnt his opposite number on the outside. Has the size as well so must be a nightmare to defend against.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Cousins really is rapid!!!

Yeah, he's properly quick. Remember one of the tries he scored in the Academy League final last year when he went the long way round and easily burnt his opposite number on the outside. Has the size as well so must be a nightmare to defend against.

He looks about 40 years old, but has some serious wheels. As does Redshaw and Toby Elliott

[Slater582]

England U20s team vs Oxford University - Saturday 2:00pm

12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins)

I'd be interested to know if either of those are more highly rated than fellow Quin centre Ludo Kolade who has been named in the Scotland squad despite playing for England U19 in April.

Saracens prop Alex O'Driscoll who toured South Africa with England U18 in the summer of 2022 is the other name in the Scotland squad that I recognise.

[Epaminondas Pules]

England U20s team vs Oxford University - Saturday 2:00pm

12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins)

I'd be interested to know if either of those are more highly rated than fellow Quin centre Ludo Kolade who has been named in the Scotland squad despite playing for England U19 in April.

Saracens prop Alex O'Driscoll who toured South Africa with England U18 in the summer of 2022 is the other name in the Scotland squad that I recognise.

Kerr and Waghorn are both very highly rated at Quins. I think Kolade is a victim of having real quality in the same age group as him, and the same club. Waghorn especially.

[Slater582]

Telegraph had an interview with Finn Carnduff confirming he will be Captain for the Six Nations.

Thought he was a flanker but they seem to think lock.

[FKAS]

Telegraph had an interview with Finn Carnduff confirming he will be Captain for the Six Nations.

Thought he was a flanker but they seem to think lock.

Plays both, came off the bench and into the second row Vs Quins at the weekend and looked right at home at Prem level. Good lineout jumper but could do with filling out a little which he'll probably do naturally over the next year or so.

[Puja]

Telegraph had an interview with Finn Carnduff confirming he will be Captain for the Six Nations.

Thought he was a flanker but they seem to think lock.

Plays both, came off the bench and into the second row Vs Quins at the weekend and looked right at home at Prem level. Good lineout jumper but could do with filling out a little which he'll probably do naturally over the next year or so.

You'd've thought he'd be keen to develop as a number 6, considering there's Chessum x2 and Martin for competition at lock at Leicester.

Puja

[p/d]

Telegraph had an interview with Finn Carnduff confirming he will be Captain for the Six Nations.

Thought he was a flanker but they seem to think lock.

Plays both, came off the bench and into the second row Vs Quins at the weekend and looked right at home at Prem level. Good lineout jumper but could do with filling out a little which he'll probably do naturally over the next year or so.

You'd've thought he'd be keen to develop as a number 6, considering there's Chessum x2 and Martin for competition at lock at Leicester.

Puja

More chance of playing 6 for England if he perseveres as a lock

[FKAS]

Plays both, came off the bench and into the second row Vs Quins at the weekend and looked right at home at Prem level. Good lineout jumper but could do with filling out a little which he'll probably do naturally over the next year or so.

You'd've thought he'd be keen to develop as a number 6, considering there's Chessum x2 and Martin for competition at lock at Leicester.

Puja

More chance of playing 6 for England if he perseveres as a lock

I dunno, if can show he's a Liebenburg/Lawes style option at 6 he probably would be popular at club and country. Can cover lock if needed but a mobile and physical blindside that's good at lineout time.

Flexibility and just any game time going at his age probably helps.

[Mellsblue]

Plays both, came off the bench and into the second row Vs Quins at the weekend and looked right at home at Prem level. Good lineout jumper but could do with filling out a little which he'll probably do naturally over the next year or so.

You'd've thought he'd be keen to develop as a number 6, considering there's Chessum x2 and Martin for competition at lock at Leicester.

Puja

More chance of playing 6 for England if he perseveres as a lock

[p/d]

You'd've thought he'd be keen to develop as a number 6, considering there's Chessum x2 and Martin for competition at lock at Leicester.

Puja

More chance of playing 6 for England if he perseveres as a lock

I dunno, if can show he's a Liebenburg/Lawes style option at 6 he probably would be popular at club and country. Can cover lock if needed but a mobile and physical blindside that's good at lineout time.

Flexibility and just any game time going at his age probably helps.

You are right of course FKAS, I just really didn’t think it through

[Puja]

More chance of playing 6 for England if he perseveres as a lock

I dunno, if can show he's a Liebenburg/Lawes style option at 6 he probably would be popular at club and country. Can cover lock if needed but a mobile and physical blindside that's good at lineout time.

Flexibility and just any game time going at his age probably helps.

You are right of course FKAS, I just really didn’t think it through

See, thinking at all is where you went wrong. None of that in England selection - it's all about how Farrell players make you *feel*.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Team for Italy. (friday 7.15pm available on BBC iplayer)

15 Ben Redshaw (Newcastle Falcons)
14 Toby Cousins (Northampton Saints) *
13 Ben Waghorn (Harlequins) *
12 Sean Kerr (Harlequins)
11 Alex Wills (Sale Sharks) *
10 Rory Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
9 Archie McParland (Northampton Saints)
1 Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks) *
2 Craig Wright (Northampton Saints) *
3 Billy Sela (Bath Rugby)
4 Olamide Sodeke (Saracens)
5 Junior Kpoku (Racing 92)
6 Finn Carnduff (c) (Leicester Tigers) *
7 Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints)
8 Zach Carr (Harlequins) *

Replacements

16 Jacob Oliver (Newcastle Falcons)
17 Scott Kirk (Bath Rugby)
18 James Halliwell (Bristol Bears) *
19 Joe Bailey (Exeter Chiefs) *
20 Nathan Michelow (Saracens) *
21 Ben Douglas (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Josh Bellamy (Harlequins)
23 Ollie Spencer (Newcastle)
*denotes a player previously capped at U20 level

[Puja]

Disappointing that the wrangle between Sale and England about Opoku-Fordjour's future position doesn't appear to have been settled yet. It is likely the strongest team to have both Sela and AOF play, but I would prefer some kind of consensus of how he's being developed and for them to allow him to have one position and specialise in it.

That aside, it's a very good team this year. Good to see Kpoku still in the English pathway. I like the look of Wills - he's got something about him whenever I see him play, the flinty determination to make the most of every bit of possession.

Puja

[fivepointer]

AOF played LH last year for the u20s. Think this is his best position. I dont think he has the size for TH.

Looking forward to seeing McParland at SH and Redshaw at FB.

[Puja]

AOF played LH last year for the u20s. Think this is his best position. I dont think he has the size for TH.

Looking forward to seeing McParland at SH and Redshaw at FB.

I knew he was there last year for the U20s, but Sale apparently want him as a 3 and nothing else going forwards (presumably because of the presence of Onasanya from their own academy) and tbh he has been mightily impressive there for their 1st XV this season. For England to put him back at 1 shows a distinct lack of joined-up thinking.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Ack of joined up thinking? Or putting out the best combination available?
Another 5 matches at LHP is not going to ruin someone who's played most of his rugby at LHP. At worst, it'll put him back by about 5 match's worth of development, so he'll have caught up again by the end of the season.

[Mellsblue]

I suppose it depends on whether the overriding aim of the u20s 6N is to win or to develop. There’s also the worry that Eng/RFU see him as a LH long term and I’ve read a number of articles that this is the case.

[twitchy]

Sale have harper as well. Tidy front row options.

[Margin_Walker]

It's probably overblown for me. Sanderson mentioned it in an interview a few months ago.

Playing LH for the U20s last season can't have harmed his development too much, given he's been playing Prem and Champ Cup rugby in the front row as a teenager this season. It's a TH talent heavy year group in the U20s, so I'm fine with starting with your best players on the pitch in this season's 6N. I can't see it setting him back.

Ultimately, if Sanderson continues to play him for Sale exclusively at TH (where he's been acquitting himself well), then that's the only position he's going to be in test contention for in future. Which is fine.

[Which Tyler]

I suppose it depends on whether the overriding aim of the u20s 6N is to win or to develop.

Can't you aim to win AND develop? Can't you develop both the hottest propping prodigies at the same time?

There’s also the worry that Eng/RFU see him as a LH long term and I’ve read a number of articles that this is the case.

Meh, we'll have a different head coach by the time they get any further say in the matter.
Any articles with any actual meat? or articles based on articles which were based on an offhand comment made before he had any particular senior game time?


I really don't see any reason whatsoever that playing the U20 6N at LHP is going to harm his development over the next 3-4 years