Scotland v England Sat 24 Feb 4.45pm

[p/d]

[

I probably should have caveated with ‘international strike runner’. I can’t remember him making a break from 1st phase- though you have a point re setting him up for said breaks. Mind, being a third centre in my mind is very different from hitting the space outside 13 at pace… which does need acceleration/ change of pace with inside defence held.

What’s that now. Centre I hear you say…..

[Banquo]

I love this idea that your issue is trying to play like Fiji! You did one good backs move, dropped a few simple passes and spent most of the match trying to make ground with one out runners.

The SA game is a massive red herring. It was pissing it down, SA were nervy and crap, and you lost. If you want to know what playing like that in the dry looks like, see the last 20 mins of the game last week. Didn't look too troubling.

The Fiji sevens comment was tongue in cheek...

On the rest of your point, I disagree - there was a period last year prior to the world cup during which we were terrible but we started to have some decent go forward in open play in the pack. I think that continued in the WC - it did against Argentina with 14 men and it did against SA, during which we didn't let them do their thing - we had the same 'vibe' we had in the NZ game in 2019. Over the past three games, in my opinion, England have looked like they have a pack that take a lot of stopping when going forward in open play. It didn't look too troubling last week because overall we were shite, we made endless mistakes, kicked badly etc.

South Africa dispatched Scotland during the world cup with ease. England pushed SA to just a point - there's not much in it. Scotland have a magnificent 10, plenty of time together, are settled and are cohesive - England at the moment have none of the above but hope Marcus Smith (or Finn) might help change things. Until that time, I propose we stick it up the jumper.

I think you are forgetting about the rain in the England SA game at the World Cup. That game plus the inevitable tightening up at semi final stage suited to a T the type of rugby you are proposing.

MB also makes a fair point - you have had match after match of very limited ambition and didnt look good in 75% of them.

You also all keep pointing to the limitations of your players. That is a fair point but it's not like they are hopeless. You don't need to wait for Marcus Smith to play semi attacking rugby when you have George Ford. He's one of the most intelligent 10s in the game, except when he is playing for England. I'm not advocating goimg crazy and running everything, I would just slightly despair if I was an England fan at the idea that the problem with this team is that it is too expansive.

Aye

[Banquo]

[

I probably should have caveated with ‘international strike runner’. I can’t remember him making a break from 1st phase- though you have a point re setting him up for said breaks. Mind, being a third centre in my mind is very different from hitting the space outside 13 at pace… which does need acceleration/ change of pace with inside defence held.

What’s that now. Centre I hear you say…..

It was fkas making the comment using him as a 3rd centre. Which we tried when Marchant (and JJ iirc) started on the wing

[Banquo]

Did you think Dan and CCs had great potential over and above others before SB picked them? Or do you rate them now as you've seen them properly for England... perhaps if some of the others were picked you might rate them too. Let's be honest CCS has played for England for a few minutes, but looked big and quick against Italy and the media love him, and then so do fans. Pearson was dumped against Wales in a WC warm up and millions around the country thought he was rubbish. I think there's great potential amongst many of these players, as Richard Hill clearly did with Ethan Roots, right?

Daly isn't underrated - he has a large number of caps and experience but ultimately not the ability (he did in the past) to really do what we'd like him to do. He has 64 caps so can't blame a lack of experience but ultimately he's no great threat as a runner... at international level, that's not ideal for a winger. I wouldn't say he's underrated. OHC and Coka would I suspect worry their opposition defender with a bit of time and space. And yes, Steward as a strike runner - in the oppo 22 at pace on the right line - I'd say he's a threat.

Three of the others I mentioned have been picked, and look ordinary. Daly is quick but needs to back himself. Steward is not a strike runner.

By strike runner I mean - he has the ability to cause defences problems with his running if he hits the right line, in the right area of the pitch - as we have seen before - at full speed, with his size, he takes some stopping, as we saw against Wales, before he was dropped. I said strike runner, you call it what you like.

Roots looks ordinary after what three games? Here we go again, righting people off. I think he's shown some qualities and like in any sport, he needs time and opportunities. We pick and drop people and then write them off to the point of madness. OHC being written of after not getting the ball for three games at the the age of 25 is mad, as is Coka at 26. No wonder we struggle. Both of them have another 6-7 years of their careers left.

We pick people, England play badly due to the overall set up/plan/management being poor and then players are written off.

The constant merry-go-round of selection hasn't helped us, hopefully having an A side now will help with that.

I’m not Writing them off, but I wouldn’t have picked them in the first place- yet you are calling them as part of the brave new dawn. I’m just not seeing what you say in the potential of some of these guys.

[Oakboy]

The blame game! If both 9 and 10 have poor games can the rest of the backs do much? As Johnny May said, they'll all be bricking it till Wednesday wondering if they'll be picked.

[Stom]

The blame game! If both 9 and 10 have poor games can the rest of the backs do much? As Johnny May said, they'll all be bricking it till Wednesday wondering if they'll be picked.

Well indeed. But it's not just 9&10, it's 6,7&8, too.

I get it, I do, but as much as the system needs time to bed in, we've just picked the wrong players in many positions.

I can get Underhill, at his peak he provides exactly what this England team could do with. But he's not at his peak, not by far. He's made tackles, but I don't remember him being anywhere near any of the Scots when chances happened.

I can't find the data I found from the first round, but for Underhill to not be in the top 10 for tackles, successful tackles OR rucks hit is frankly appalling. And Roots isn't there, either.

So what the hell were they doing?

Earl is getting through a tonne of work. But is that because he's basically playing without flankers?

[Oakboy]

The blame game! If both 9 and 10 have poor games can the rest of the backs do much? As Johnny May said, they'll all be bricking it till Wednesday wondering if they'll be picked.

Well indeed. But it's not just 9&10, it's 6,7&8, too.

I get it, I do, but as much as the system needs time to bed in, we've just picked the wrong players in many positions.

I can get Underhill, at his peak he provides exactly what this England team could do with. But he's not at his peak, not by far. He's made tackles, but I don't remember him being anywhere near any of the Scots when chances happened.

I can't find the data I found from the first round, but for Underhill to not be in the top 10 for tackles, successful tackles OR rucks hit is frankly appalling. And Roots isn't there, either.

So what the hell were they doing?

Earl is getting through a tonne of work. But is that because he's basically playing without flankers?

I've said several times that none of them would be in my 1st choice back row but, presumably, SB would claim that they were the best available at the time.

[Skalyba]

The blame game! If both 9 and 10 have poor games can the rest of the backs do much? As Johnny May said, they'll all be bricking it till Wednesday wondering if they'll be picked.

Well indeed. But it's not just 9&10, it's 6,7&8, too.

I get it, I do, but as much as the system needs time to bed in, we've just picked the wrong players in many positions.

I can get Underhill, at his peak he provides exactly what this England team could do with. But he's not at his peak, not by far. He's made tackles, but I don't remember him being anywhere near any of the Scots when chances happened.

I can't find the data I found from the first round, but for Underhill to not be in the top 10 for tackles, successful tackles OR rucks hit is frankly appalling. And Roots isn't there, either.

So what the hell were they doing?

Earl is getting through a tonne of work. But is that because he's basically playing without flankers?

I think it is the wrong players but mainly due to injury rather than selection. I feel 8 was meant to be a carrier, a la Barbery or Willis, but both were unavailable. With Curry also out Sb shifted Earl to 8 and Root to 6 (as the carrier), with Underhill the next choice as Curry 'light' (harsh given his pedigree but I think that's how SB works).

Combine that with losing both of our carrying centres in Manu and Lawrence, and also M Smith and Mitchell and we've looked makeshift there as well. Obviously guessing but it looked liked the preferred lineup was 7 Curry/Earl, 8 Barbery/Wills, 6 CCS/Pearson 9 Mitchell, 10 - apparently M Smith was down as starter - -all in all that 7-13 looks very different from what's actually been able to take the field. We have quality in terms of backups, but the game plan changes, especially if you're basing the attacking plan on carriers at 8 and 12 running off M Smith/Mitchell attacking the line. Care/Ford/Dingwall/Slade just doesn't look the same

[Which Tyler]

Point of order, Barbeary was available, but not selected.
His 2 match band (with tackle school) was over before the first weekend.

[Banquo]

Point of order, Barbeary was available, but not selected.
His 2 match band (with tackle school) was over before the first weekend.

as was Lawrence, given he played last weekend