Exeter vs Quins - Sat 5.30pm

[Puja]

Exeter Chiefs v Harlequins

Exeter Chiefs: 15 Dan John, 14 Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, 13 Henry Slade, 12 Joe Hawkins, 11 Olly Woodburn, 10 Harvey Skinner, 9 Tom Cairns, 8 Greg Fisilau, 7 Jacques Vermeulen, 6 Ethan Roots, 5 Dafydd Jenkins (c), 4 Jack Dunne, 3 Marcus Street, 2 Jack Yeandle, 1 Scott Sio
Replacements: 16 Max Norey, 17 Billy Keast, 18 Ehren Painter, 19 Christ Tshiunza, 20 Ross Vintcent, 21 Niall Armstrong, 22 Will Haydon-Wood, 23 Zack Wimbush

Harlequins: 15 Tyrone Green, 14 Louis Lynagh, 13 Oscar Beard, 12 Luke Northmore, 11 Cadan Murley, 10 Marcus Smith, 9 Will Porter, 8 Alex Dombrandt, 7 James Chisholm, 6 Chandler Cunningham-South, 5 Stephan Lewies (c), 4 Irne Herbst, 3 Will Collier, 2 Jack Walker, 1 Joe Marler
Replacements: 16 Sam Riley, 17 Fin Baxter, 18 Dillon Lewis, 19 George Hammond, 20 Jack Kenningham, 21 Will Evans, 22 Danny Care, 23 Jarrod Evans

Venue: Sandy Park
Kick-off: 17:30 BST
Referee: Matthew Carley
Assistant Referees: Anthony Woodthorpe, Greg Macdonald
TMO: David Rose

[FKAS]

Quins practising for next season when the giant won't be there anymore or is he injured?

[Mikey Brown]

Injured apparently. Shot to the head? Who knows.

Anyanwu really doesn’t seem to get much of a look in. I guess we have to hope Northmore can fit in at 12 next year with Beard and Joseph at 13.

Great to see Kenningham back.

[Mr Mwenda]

Just turned it on. Really surprised the tmo didn't pipe up during the build up to Exeter's third try. Two extremely flat passes there.

[Mr Mwenda]

Proper pumping now though.

[FKAS]

Yeah that second half was a humbling experience for Quins.

[fivepointer]

Exeter were terrific. Quins not at the races and did well to get a try BP. They were comprehensively outplayed.

Skinner a deserved MotM. Not a board favourite but he did very well alongside Slade who was excellent.

[Mikey Brown]

Didn’t see this one. Sounds horrible.

I struggle to know if Quins are just too inconsistent as individuals, reliant on Esterhuizen, knackered from Europe or simply lacking the depth to keep competing with the same 15 basically every week.

I suppose a bunch of this are essentially the same issue, but I haven’t got a clue what the answer is. I still don’t know what our situation is with defence, but it seems untenable to keep letting sides get 30+ points and hoping we’ll still outscore them.

[Oakboy]

Exeter were terrific. Quins not at the races and did well to get a try BP. They were comprehensively outplayed.

Skinner a deserved MotM. Not a board favourite but he did very well alongside Slade who was excellent.

The best I have seen from Skinner but I had IFW well ahead as MoM.

Fisilau was there or there abouts too and highlighted his approach in the 8 shirt - worked his nuts off for every minute. It was a sad contrast to Dombrandt whose highlights impressed while his overall minute-to-minute contribution did not.

[p/d]

To be fair to Quins they gave their everything last week, in an absolute belter of a game. No surprise key player’s didn’t hit their straps.

[p/d]

With you on IFW as motm. All round class. Skinner control was very good but his defence was hit and miss

[Puja]

Didn’t see this one. Sounds horrible.

I struggle to know if Quins are just too inconsistent as individuals, reliant on Esterhuizen, knackered from Europe or simply lacking the depth to keep competing with the same 15 basically every week.

I suppose a bunch of this are essentially the same issue, but I haven’t got a clue what the answer is. I still don’t know what our situation is with defence, but it seems untenable to keep letting sides get 30+ points and hoping we’ll still outscore them.

I would say knackered from Europe, both physically and mentally. The first half they were possibly the better team, but Exeter just pulled away as the game went on.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Didn’t see this one. Sounds horrible.

I struggle to know if Quins are just too inconsistent as individuals, reliant on Esterhuizen, knackered from Europe or simply lacking the depth to keep competing with the same 15 basically every week.

I suppose a bunch of this are essentially the same issue, but I haven’t got a clue what the answer is. I still don’t know what our situation is with defence, but it seems untenable to keep letting sides get 30+ points and hoping we’ll still outscore them.

TBH, I think it’s all of those.

I am concerned about the post-Andre era. He’s been a fundamental part of our game plan over the past few seasons. Without him, we’re a different team (a lesser one).

The defence piece is crazy. When you look at the top 7 or 8 sides, most have 9 or 10 wins. Results wise, we’re there or thereabouts but our PD is insanely bad. Tightening up the defence is basically the difference between us making the play-offs or not.

[Mikey Brown]

Didn’t see this one. Sounds horrible.

I struggle to know if Quins are just too inconsistent as individuals, reliant on Esterhuizen, knackered from Europe or simply lacking the depth to keep competing with the same 15 basically every week.

I suppose a bunch of this are essentially the same issue, but I haven’t got a clue what the answer is. I still don’t know what our situation is with defence, but it seems untenable to keep letting sides get 30+ points and hoping we’ll still outscore them.

TBH, I think it’s all of those.

I am concerned about the post-Andre era. He’s been a fundamental part of our game plan over the past few seasons. Without him, we’re a different team (a lesser one).

The defence piece is crazy. When you look at the top 7 or 8 sides, most have 9 or 10 wins. Results wise, we’re there or thereabouts but our PD is insanely bad. Tightening up the defence is basically the difference between us making the play-offs or not.

But do we even want to? Is there some reason we can’t attack like we do and still have a decent defence, beyond the extra exertion? I don’t know if it’s simply part of the game-plan at this point. A defensive plan that leads to lots of turnovers and counter-attack opportunities but is generally pretty porous.

It’s weird. We’ll have patches in games where it looks fantastic. Flannery has been recruited by the very defence-focused SA coaching team. I’m not sure what the deal is.

[FKAS]

Are Quins perhaps struggling with the lack of a full time defence coach in the same way Tigers have been struggling without a full time attack coach?

[Danno]

Yeah having a defence coach (and ideally one that would like to instill the idea that defence is not wholly optional) would be quite nice. As much as I adore the "we will just score more" ethos, it would be nice to see a bit more grit* on the other side of the ball.

*Something like an entire quarry of grit, actually. We're really fucking soft in defence

[Mikey Brown]

Is it really 'grit' though? It doesn't feel like a lack of determination or commitment to me. So many scores come from loose play in attack as well. Only just caught the highlights now and the wild Smith offload for the IFW is a prime example.

I'm sure the short turnaround after Toulouse was going to play its part, and Exeter looked in a different league in the second half, but that forward pass for the Exeter try (to draw level at half time) was ridiculous. It's like refs have gotten used to allowing a bit of drift for 'momentum' and then forget that doesn't apply when the passer is standing completely still.

[twitchy]

Yep, quins played well to start with but obviously suffered from previous exertions and dropped off later on. That being said I think exe are really playing well and are building a good side. The 9/10 lack super star status but both play very effectively.

[Puja]

Is it really 'grit' though? It doesn't feel like a lack of determination or commitment to me. So many scores come from loose play in attack as well. Only just caught the highlights now and the wild Smith offload for the IFW is a prime example.

I'm sure the short turnaround after Toulouse was going to play its part, and Exeter looked in a different league in the second half, but that forward pass for the Exeter try (to draw level at half time) was ridiculous. It's like refs have gotten used to allowing a bit of drift for 'momentum' and then forget that doesn't apply when the passer is standing completely still.

I have to say the Smith offload/IFW try did strike me as an example of a lack of grit. Smith has done phenomenally well to beat three defenders and, if someone is on his shoulder or even just close behind him, there is a break and a potential try there, but the only person who has worked to get himself into a position to take a pass is Green. JEvans, Herbst, and Walker (who I thought was very poor all over) are just standing there watching him. Yes, Smith absolutely should not have tried to make the offload when it clearly wasn't on and it's entirely his error, but if JEvans has bust a gut to get on his shoulder, then it's a 1 metre pass for a certain break, rather than attempting to one-arm offload to someone standing 7-8m away.

Entirely possible it's tiredness, cause Quins did leave everything out there in Toulouse and it's only been a short turnaround, but it's never a good look to have players ambling.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

That's a fair assessment I think. I don't want to split hairs over the definition of 'grit', but I guess I was questioning more what a specialist defence coach does about an error like that. In the last few weeks the number of tries conceded from disorganisation on turnovers, inaccurate passes/offloads, botched restarts/clearances is massive. It's not like we've just been complete turnstiles in defence.

[Oakboy]

I think the issue for Quins is nothing serious. It's sport. To be remorselessly consistent a team needs to play conservatively so that control is retained. It means playing within itself basically so that performances are, say, in the range of 75 to 85%. Quins play in the range of 65 to 95. The good, full of flair, is mega-entertaining but with it comes the occasional bad game. The bad costs results if the opposition is good and 'up for it'. Exeter were.

I am not a Quins supporter but I like watching them. I rate most ot their players. The contrast is with Saracens who I rarely enjoy watching despite rating some of their players.

[Puja]

I think the issue for Quins is nothing serious. It's sport. To be remorselessly consistent a team needs to play conservatively so that control is retained. It means playing within itself basically so that performances are, say, in the range of 75 to 85%. Quins play in the range of 65 to 95. The good, full of flair, is mega-entertaining but with it comes the occasional bad game. The bad costs results if the opposition is good and 'up for it'. Exeter were.

I am not a Quins supporter but I like watching them. I rate most ot their players. The contrast is with Saracens who I rarely enjoy watching despite rating some of their players.

[Haskell.gif]

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Well sure, nothing serious except for any of the people trying to fix the problems.

I'm largely in the camp that I'd rather enjoy actually watching the team play than maybe grind out 1 or 2 wins more playing anti-rugby, but it's still a business with people employed to try and get results.

[Oakboy]

Well sure, nothing serious except for any of the people trying to fix the problems.

I'm largely in the camp that I'd rather enjoy actually watching the team play than maybe grind out 1 or 2 wins more playing anti-rugby, but it's still a business with people employed to try and get results.

True, but unless a team has the best players on the planet in every position there has to be some sort of trade-off between entertainment and results. Would Quins fill the stadium playing the grind stuff? And, if Quins (and Saints) reeled it in too much would TV cough up? Plus, it's all within the RFU/Premiership framework which is not exactly perfect. I just hope Quins hold their nerve.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah it would be interesting to know what sort of metrics teams have on the value of entertainment vs wins. Everything is easier when you're winning obviously, but regularly filling the stadium and being a team that BT/TNT are desperate to have on TV must go a long way.

Saints are a good example though. Have they 'reeled it in' this season? Or have they just tweaked things so they still have a lethal attack and a decent enough defence to be comfortably top of the league?

I also wonder how this ties in with complaints about Twickenham being full of rich toffs and part time fans, barely paying attention, more focused on the pints, burgers and Mexican waves, whilst being a bit inaccessible to a lot of people. Obviously expectations of results are very different at the top level. SA play the ultimate sort of 'knockout rugby' style, but I wouldn't call them boring to watch. With England playing some pretty disjointed and dull stuff over the last few years I can barely remember even considering going to an England game.