Japan vs England team speculation

[Oakboy]

Who would these most mobile tight five be?

Good question. Itoje, obviously. His partner in the 2nd row is difficult. Not George at 2 - several alternatives. Baxter and ? at prop.

Is it? George Martin was mobile enough to play in the backrow regularly up to just over a year ago and why wouldn't you want 19 stone or mobile second row alongside Itoje.

I suppose he is the best we have found do far but he's more of a bull elephant than a springbok.

[Oakboy]

Can't disagree. Are you assuming the same playing style? With the existing methods and players we are 3rd best (or worse). Can we improve as a team without changing style and can that happen without new faces? I find it hard to think of a better opportunity than this three match series to up our game. Might we see some brave selection - the most mobile tight five forwards, for example?

You aren't happy with the style shown at the end of the 6N?

Puja

Not really - better but not good is how I'd describe it. By defintion, it was not competition-winning. What I was referring to was how we improve. Do we have the grunt to out-muscle the top teams? Do we have the pace to out-manoevre top teams? Yes, it has to be a compromise of both, obviously, but should we braver in opting for the second option more - with Northampton providing a balanced example perhaps?

I suppose Ford at 10 and his 'game management' sums it up. Maybe, a slow progression makes sense. Make us hard to beat first, in other words. I think that undersells our potential. At this point in the RWC cycle I'd like us to take more risks to find out whether we can consistently beat the best.

[Epaminondas Pules]

We've only really started to change over the last few games. A new defensive system to bed in and a more attacking mindset starting to emerge. I'd say we need to bed in and evolve rather than heap change on top of change.

[FKAS]

We've only really started to change over the last few games. A new defensive system to bed in and a more attacking mindset starting to emerge. I'd say we need to bed in and evolve rather than heap change on top of change.

Very much so. We beat Ireland and narrowly lost to France at the end of the tournament showing some very nice rugby as we did so. A continuation of that evolution, please. Got to build on foundations and not knock them down and start again every international window.

[Mikey Brown]

Good question. Itoje, obviously. His partner in the 2nd row is difficult. Not George at 2 - several alternatives. Baxter and ? at prop.

Is it? George Martin was mobile enough to play in the backrow regularly up to just over a year ago and why wouldn't you want 19 stone or mobile second row alongside Itoje.

I suppose he is the best we have found do far but he's more of a bull elephant than a springbok.

I’m pretty baffled by this to be honest.

We’ve found a big, mobile, powerful partner to Itoje at lock and have Chessum who I think can play alongside either without losing too much balance. That seems like a big success.

Are you referring to Springboks as in SA? That we need more mobile locks like South Africa select??? Ignore Etzebeth. He’s a freak. We might never see a player like him again. You can’t just conjure that sort of person out of thin air, no matter how big your player base is.

Jamie George isn’t looking particularly dynamic anymore but Dan is coming through, I imagine Langdon isn’t far behind. It doesn’t seem like such a bad position.

How and why do England start playing like Northampton all of a sudden. We haven’t even seen whether they can win the Premiership let alone model the national team on them. Don’t get me wrong I’d love England to get Vesty involved at some point and play a more expansive game, but it felt like England were actually starting to get their shit together towards the end of the 6 nations.

Obviously Marler and Cole won’t be around for a lot longer anyway, but weren’t you a big supporter of beefing up the set piece following the repeated beastings from South Africa?

[Puja]

Question for the group actually - if we are planning on throwing over George (which I'm far from convinced would be sensible just yet, but hey-ho), then who becomes our captain? Of the three contenders of Itoje, Genge, Ford, the latter two are not guaranteed their positions and the former has previously intimated that he doesn't want it (I suspect he's not thrilled on the idea of the increased twitter racist abuse).

If Itoje's still not interested, then I think it'd need to be Genge, but I suppose an argument could be made for a left-field call to Earl.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Genge is out of the summer tour anyway

[Oakboy]

Question for the group actually - if we are planning on throwing over George (which I'm far from convinced would be sensible just yet, but hey-ho), then who becomes our captain? Of the three contenders of Itoje, Genge, Ford, the latter two are not guaranteed their positions and the former has previously intimated that he doesn't want it (I suspect he's not thrilled on the idea of the increased twitter racist abuse).

If Itoje's still not interested, then I think it'd need to be Genge, but I suppose an argument could be made for a left-field call to Earl.

Puja

My memory is on the downside of reliable but did Itoje not take over the on-field captaincy during the 6N when George was replaced? If I've got that right, maybe his reluctance to take the job permanently has changed since SB replaced Jones???

[Oakboy]

but weren’t you a big supporter of beefing up the set piece following the repeated beastings from South Africa?

No, I only advocated starting Marler with Genge on the bench rather than the other way round. I suppose the other consistent POV was about not continuing to pick Billy V - so arguably, I was for speed over bulk way back. (I'd have picked Simmonds etc.)

[Captainhaircut]

Baxter starting with Rodd off the bench?

Where does Obano fit into this tour? He started the season like a train but seemed to tail off a bit and be less noticeable.

[Puja]

Genge is out of the summer tour anyway

Good point - I had completely forgotten that! Is he confirmed as definitely out now then? After the match there were some things of "We'll see, could be better than it looks, could be worse..."

Question for the group actually - if we are planning on throwing over George (which I'm far from convinced would be sensible just yet, but hey-ho), then who becomes our captain? Of the three contenders of Itoje, Genge, Ford, the latter two are not guaranteed their positions and the former has previously intimated that he doesn't want it (I suspect he's not thrilled on the idea of the increased twitter racist abuse).

If Itoje's still not interested, then I think it'd need to be Genge, but I suppose an argument could be made for a left-field call to Earl.

Puja

My memory is on the downside of reliable but did Itoje not take over the on-field captaincy during the 6N when George was replaced? If I've got that right, maybe his reluctance to take the job permanently has changed since SB replaced Jones???

Itoje did take over on-field captaincy several time in the 6N, but it may also be that being willing to take up the reins mid-match is a different kettle of fish to being The Official England Captain and having his head above the parapet for every internet troll to take a shot at. There's not really enough information out there to know - I'd have him as captain till 2027 if he'd be willing to serve, as I think he's got every attribute needed.

Puja

[Epaminondas Pules]

Genge is out of the summer tour anyway

Good point - I had completely forgotten that! Is he confirmed as definitely out now then? After the match there were some things of "We'll see, could be better than it looks, could be worse..."

Puja

Yeah he's definitely out now.

[jimKRFC]

Genge is out of the summer tour anyway

Good point - I had completely forgotten that! Is he confirmed as definitely out now then? After the match there were some things of "We'll see, could be better than it looks, could be worse..."

Puja

Yeah he's definitely out now.

Out for 10 weeks according to local paper.

[Banquo]

Good question. Itoje, obviously. His partner in the 2nd row is difficult. Not George at 2 - several alternatives. Baxter and ? at prop.

Is it? George Martin was mobile enough to play in the backrow regularly up to just over a year ago and why wouldn't you want 19 stone or mobile second row alongside Itoje.

I suppose he is the best we have found do far but he's more of a bull elephant than a springbok.

In form Chessum too.

[FKAS]

Good point - I had completely forgotten that! Is he confirmed as definitely out now then? After the match there were some things of "We'll see, could be better than it looks, could be worse..."

Puja

Yeah he's definitely out now.

Out for 10 weeks according to local paper.

Blow to lose our best loosehead for the tour but with Baxter and Obano both showing up well we've got some options.

[Beasties]

Baxter starting with Rodd off the bench?

Where does Obano fit into this tour? He started the season like a train but seemed to tail off a bit and be less noticeable.

Rodd’s really looking like proper international quality now. I’ve been a little meh on him but lately he’s won me over.

As far as Painter’s concerned, what is the question we’re asking if he’s the answer? Harper looked good in that Sarries match. Proper put his injury problems behind him. Granted he was up against Mako so a low bar, but still.

[FKAS]

Baxter starting with Rodd off the bench?

Where does Obano fit into this tour? He started the season like a train but seemed to tail off a bit and be less noticeable.

Rodd’s really looking like proper international quality now. I’ve been a little meh on him but lately he’s won me over.

As far as Painter’s concerned, what is the question we’re asking if he’s the answer? Harper looked good in that Sarries match. Proper put his injury problems behind him. Granted he was up against Mako so a low bar, but still.

If we're taking Baxter and Rodd as the looseheads we'll want as much experience at tighthead as we can get so Cole and Stuart. Heyes presumably to remain as back up but whether it's him or Harper doesn't matter greatly as only likely to get a sub appearance Vs Japan.

[Scrumhead]

Baxter starting with Rodd off the bench?

Where does Obano fit into this tour? He started the season like a train but seemed to tail off a bit and be less noticeable.

Rodd’s really looking like proper international quality now. I’ve been a little meh on him but lately he’s won me over.

As far as Painter’s concerned, what is the question we’re asking if he’s the answer? Harper looked good in that Sarries match. Proper put his injury problems behind him. Granted he was up against Mako so a low bar, but still.

Painter is 26 so if he’s going to kick on, it needs to be soon.

We lack a big, scrummaging tighthead and physically, he’s got the frame to be useful. However, at this point, that’s it. He needs to develop his scrummaging and work rate to be more than just a big heavy bloke who is hard to move.

In the first third of the season he was starting to look like the move to Exeter was having a positive impact, but that kind of tailed off.

The opportunity is there, but unless he finds some way of making good on his physical gifts very soon, he’ll not get beyond his current level.

On the plus side, generally the game time he’s not getting is going to Marcus Street who is smaller, but younger and more of a technical scrummager. Of the Exeter props, he’s probably the one I’m pinning more hopes on.

Harper is my big hope though. Big lad, decent scrummager and has a bit of dynamism around the park.

[Mikey Brown]

I am somehow completely unaware of Harper’s existence aside from seeing his name mentioned on here.

Is he one that has been promising for a while but mostly injured?

[twitchy]

I've seen him a few times for sale but it's so tough to gauge scrummaging when you watch on tv. You pretty much have to take others word for it.

[Scrumhead]

I am somehow completely unaware of Harper’s existence aside from seeing his name mentioned on here.

Is he one that has been promising for a while but mostly injured?

Not wholly inaccurate. He made a breakthrough at the end of the 20/21 season and looked really promising but then got injured and missed a lot of rugby. This is what you need: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/as-a-raw ... le-harper/

[fivepointer]

Something of an anticlimax. Just 19 players. 4 day camp starting tomorrow.

Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins)
Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers)
Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Ethan Roots (Exeter Chiefs)
Rusi Tuima (Exeter Chiefs)

Backs

Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)
Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers)

[Puja]

Northmore ahead of Beard is interesting call though.

I approve of the smaller squad though. No point calling up players who are not realistically going to be in contention - just focus on inculcating the systems into this lot.

Puja

[FKAS]

I presume old man Cole is just taking some post season rest. Shame Kelly's end of season uplift in form wasn't enough to make the camp.

[Mikey Brown]

I presume old man Cole is just taking some post season rest. Shame Kelly's end of season uplift in form wasn't enough to make the camp.

Is his potential future with Ireland unclear due to Borthwick’s interest in him or vice versa? I don’t know if there was any more than speculation to that idea?

It feels like he’s been ‘the next 12’ for ages now,

It does seem like a bit of an odd squad though. Very few dead certs for a 23 among them, but I don’t know what else he could realistically pick.