Young talent - progress?

[Oakboy]

Per BBC:

"England have a "generational" crop of young talent that has more potential than the squad which reached the 2019 World Cup final under Eddie Jones, says Rugby Football Union director of performance Conor O'Shea.

In July, England won World Rugby's Under-20 Championship for the first time since 2016, to add to the team's Six Nations triumph in March.

O'Shea is excited by the "very special" talent not only in the under-20s set-up, but also the players already in the England senior squad aged 25 or under.

"I believe that the group of players that are coming together - I am not just talking about last year’s under-20s, you're talking from Ollie Chessum (24), George Martin (23), Tommy Freeman (23) down - that age group is really, really special," O'Shea told BBC Sport. "It is generational.

"You also have to consider the age profile of the likes of Marcus Smith (25) and Ben Earl (26). When you marry all that together and put experience and years into them, there is a very, very special group.

"It is really exciting not just from a pathway point of view but from an England and club point of view. These aren't just normal players, these are special players."

In 2011, Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford and Mako Vunipola all started in England's under-20 team that lost to the Baby Blacks of New Zealand in the Junior World Championship final.

They all went on to play a key role in England reaching the 2019 World Cup final under Jones.

Four years later, Steve Borthwick's side narrowly missed out on another World Cup final, with a large portion of that age group again contributing.

"The time that Farrell and Ford were coming through I was in the system," said O'Shea, who was director of rugby at Harlequins from 2010-2016.

"I would say I am more excited about this cohort and what they can achieve. They have unbelievable potential if they are in the right system."

Former Ireland full-back O'Shea, who is in overall charge of the development of young players, joined the RFU in 2020 following a three-year spell in charge of Italy's national team.

In December 2023, O'Shea said England's rugby structure had "failed miserably" to give young talent an opportunity.

He says the way Premiership clubs and the national team are now aligned through the new eight-year Professional Game Partnership (PGP), external, which was set up in September after 18 months of collaboration, will bring improvements.

Another change has been picking players a year young at England Under-18 level for their summer tour of South Africa, giving players more time in the set-up before stepping up to the under-20s.

Borthwick and his senior coaching staff have also become more involved, with 2003 World Cup winner Richard Hill influential in the promotion of flanker Chandler Cunningham-South to the senior team.

"We [Borthwick and I] talk more than regularly. I would say four or five times a week, if not more," O'Shea added.

"I would swap texts with Steve through matches, we will have pathway meetings that Steve will start coming to.

"The dialogue is getting stronger every week."

Encouraging thinking perhaps?

[Banquo]

Conor has the right ideas. Needs PRL to be on board.

[twitchy]

Feels like the PR machine has spun up into overdrive.

[Banquo]

Feels like the PR machine has spun up into overdrive.

True, but its doesn't mean O'Shea is wrong, nor that the intent isn't there. The issue may well be Borthwick's competence, esp with when and how to introduce new faces into the side- its pretty clear that current faces in various units aren't good enough.

[Epaminondas Pules]

2011 was a phenomenal year group (not just for us either) that saw the largest transition from age grade into senior rugby at the highest levels. Factor in also each year group is actually made up of two years or even three. Think of it like a school first team, a mix of upper sixth, lower sixth who have another year for the first team and a smattering of 5th formers potentially who are ‘playing up’.

What we have currently (this years U20 cup winners) is effectively a sensational year group at that level on a par with 2011, but also the next group who are equally as good, the current U18 crop this year. And a group who graduated last year (CCS, Fisilau etc.) who are making inroads at prem and above.

In theory we are stacked as we ever have been and more, but that only works if we actually manage the development into senior, international and ultimately world class players. Which we’ve been historically cack at!

[fivepointer]

Pretty encouraging i'd say. Think things are starting to move in the right direction but need buy in from the clubs to accelerate progress. we simply have to do more to maximise the talent we have at 17-21.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Pretty encouraging i'd say. Think things are starting to move in the right direction but need buy in from the clubs to accelerate progress. we simply have to do more to maximise the talent we have at 17-21.

Yes, after having a strong pathway and then fucking that royally we have reinvigorated the pathway to levels above where it was. The key is if we have the strategy and execution capabilities to do the next step of building world class players.

[Banquo]

Pretty encouraging i'd say. Think things are starting to move in the right direction but need buy in from the clubs to accelerate progress. we simply have to do more to maximise the talent we have at 17-21.

Yes, after having a strong pathway and then fucking that royally we have reinvigorated the pathway to levels above where it was. The key is if we have the strategy and execution capabilities to do the next step of building world class players.

….depends on O sheas plan for housing the u20’s in clubs that ensure good all round development , and how PRL buy in

[Oakboy]

Pretty encouraging i'd say. Think things are starting to move in the right direction but need buy in from the clubs to accelerate progress. we simply have to do more to maximise the talent we have at 17-21.

Yes, after having a strong pathway and then fucking that royally we have reinvigorated the pathway to levels above where it was. The key is if we have the strategy and execution capabilities to do the next step of building world class players.

….depends on O sheas plan for housing the u20’s in clubs that ensure good all round development , and how PRL buy in

Is it my imagination or are clubs toning down slightly on foreign journeymen? Salary caps are always going to create some either/or element between them and young EQP prospects as long as we still have club/country clashes, 6N gap weeks etc. aren't they?

I also wonder whether a true analysis has been done on the effects of France-based players not being up for (senior) international selection. Might the development, in France, of our youngsters be more beneficial overall to the extent that relaxing the selection policy gave us a net gain? Allowing SB to select a limited number (2 or 3, say) could drive up standards perhaps.

[Banquo]

Yes, after having a strong pathway and then fucking that royally we have reinvigorated the pathway to levels above where it was. The key is if we have the strategy and execution capabilities to do the next step of building world class players.

….depends on O sheas plan for housing the u20’s in clubs that ensure good all round development , and how PRL buy in

Is it my imagination or are clubs toning down slightly on foreign journeymen? Salary caps are always going to create some either/or element between them and young EQP prospects as long as we still have club/country clashes, 6N gap weeks etc. aren't they?

I also wonder whether a true analysis has been done on the effects of France-based players not being up for (senior) international selection. Might the development, in France, of our youngsters be more beneficial overall to the extent that relaxing the selection policy gave us a net gain? Allowing SB to select a limited number (2 or 3, say) could drive up standards perhaps.

They are preparing for the enforced shrinkage of squad sizes as demanded by DCMS (though I believe may be parked for a while), a proportion of which would be developed youngsters.

[FKAS]

….depends on O sheas plan for housing the u20’s in clubs that ensure good all round development , and how PRL buy in

Is it my imagination or are clubs toning down slightly on foreign journeymen? Salary caps are always going to create some either/or element between them and young EQP prospects as long as we still have club/country clashes, 6N gap weeks etc. aren't they?

I also wonder whether a true analysis has been done on the effects of France-based players not being up for (senior) international selection. Might the development, in France, of our youngsters be more beneficial overall to the extent that relaxing the selection policy gave us a net gain? Allowing SB to select a limited number (2 or 3, say) could drive up standards perhaps.

They are preparing for the enforced shrinkage of squad sizes as demanded by DCMS (though I believe may be parked for a while), a proportion of which would be developed youngsters.

Part of the agreement with the RFU is there being an average of 15 EQ players in the 23 across the season. As such the wealth of talent coming through is coming through at the right time for clubs who need those players to come good to replace the non-EQ journeymen likely to be moved on to the ProD2 etc (if they haven't already).

Cheaper to fill out a squad with young talent than it is more experienced players as well as not needed as big squads with the reduced number of games.

[Banquo]

Is it my imagination or are clubs toning down slightly on foreign journeymen? Salary caps are always going to create some either/or element between them and young EQP prospects as long as we still have club/country clashes, 6N gap weeks etc. aren't they?

I also wonder whether a true analysis has been done on the effects of France-based players not being up for (senior) international selection. Might the development, in France, of our youngsters be more beneficial overall to the extent that relaxing the selection policy gave us a net gain? Allowing SB to select a limited number (2 or 3, say) could drive up standards perhaps.

They are preparing for the enforced shrinkage of squad sizes as demanded by DCMS (though I believe may be parked for a while), a proportion of which would be developed youngsters.

Cheaper to fill out a squad with young talent than it is more experienced players as well as not needed as big squads with the reduced number of games.

Obviously.

[Captainhaircut]

Looking forward to seeing how this golden generations does in the colours of Scotland and Wales.

[Slater582]

2011 was a phenomenal year group (not just for us either) that saw the largest transition from age grade into senior rugby at the highest levels. Factor in also each year group is actually made up of two years or even three. Think of it like a school first team, a mix of upper sixth, lower sixth who have another year for the first team and a smattering of 5th formers potentially who are ‘playing up’.

What we have currently (this years U20 cup winners) is effectively a sensational year group at that level on a par with 2011, but also the next group who are equally as good, the current U18 crop this year. And a group who graduated last year (CCS, Fisilau etc.) who are making inroads at prem and above.

In theory we are stacked as we ever have been and more, but that only works if we actually manage the development into senior, international and ultimately world class players. Which we’ve been historically cack at!

O'Shea reckons they are better apparently

England Under-20 returned to the top step of the podium last year, winning the Six Nations and the World title. They began this year’s Six Nations with a victory over Ireland in Cork. O’Shea believes the under-18s are even better. There is reason to be optimistic in the long term.

Source: https://x.com/TimesSport/status/1887244813713698904

[Oakboy]

Something developmental is starting right but that is all that can be said so far.

[Banquo]

2011 was a phenomenal year group (not just for us either) that saw the largest transition from age grade into senior rugby at the highest levels. Factor in also each year group is actually made up of two years or even three. Think of it like a school first team, a mix of upper sixth, lower sixth who have another year for the first team and a smattering of 5th formers potentially who are ‘playing up’.

What we have currently (this years U20 cup winners) is effectively a sensational year group at that level on a par with 2011, but also the next group who are equally as good, the current U18 crop this year. And a group who graduated last year (CCS, Fisilau etc.) who are making inroads at prem and above.

In theory we are stacked as we ever have been and more, but that only works if we actually manage the development into senior, international and ultimately world class players. Which we’ve been historically cack at!

O'Shea reckons they are better apparently

England Under-20 returned to the top step of the podium last year, winning the Six Nations and the World title. They began this year’s Six Nations with a victory over Ireland in Cork. O’Shea believes the under-18s are even better. There is reason to be optimistic in the long term.

Source: https://x.com/TimesSport/status/1887244813713698904

He does, esp up front.

[Banquo]

as an adjunct, the next stage of development for the u20's is critical, and I really hope that PRL and the Tier 2 board and the RFU can get this right; each U20 needs a proper development plan and regular rugby somewhere. Warehousing young talent just isn't acceptable.

[Puja]

Talk in the papers the last couple of days about an U20s league being set up, potentially even starting next year. Not sure what that'd mean for the Championship, but the stats say that our U20s are averaging 7 club games per season, even with loans, which isn't enough, so I guess it may have to be the way forward.

Puja

[Banquo]

Talk in the papers the last couple of days about an U20s league being set up, potentially even starting next year. Not sure what that'd mean for the Championship, but the stats say that our U20s are averaging 7 club games per season, even with loans, which isn't enough, so I guess it may have to be the way forward.

Puja

That's on the Prem clubs- I think an U20's league is ok, but what about when they aren't U20?- which was the point really.

I know O'shea is most worried about that stat. Its not rocket science tbh- all the clubs maybe bar Ealing and Cov, would happily take 4-6 U20's onto their loan roster, as long as they could have them ('guaranteed') for say 16 games a season, and with active and agreed dev plans- and use a draft system each year.

Prem clubs are the blockers here, no one else.

[Which Tyler]

Talk in the papers the last couple of days about an U20s league being set up, potentially even starting next year. Not sure what that'd mean for the Championship,

Really? I'd have thought it was pretty obvious - it means "F*** 'em, get back, I'm alright Jack, keep your hands off of my stack" much as it has been whenever PRL did anything within the last 20 years.

but the stats say that our U20s are averaging 7 club games per season, even with loans, which isn't enough

I'd need the definition of "enough" given that we're talking such a young age, and mostly still in full-time technically) education.
The age we need to "worry" about is 21-24 - where it instinctively feels the best it's ever been for getting opportunities

[Oakboy]

Talk in the papers the last couple of days about an U20s league being set up, potentially even starting next year. Not sure what that'd mean for the Championship,

Really? I'd have thought it was pretty obvious - it means "F*** 'em, get back, I'm alright Jack, keep your hands off of my stack" much as it has been whenever PRL did anything within the last 20 years.

but the stats say that our U20s are averaging 7 club games per season, even with loans, which isn't enough

I'd need the definition of "enough" given that we're talking such a young age, and mostly still in full-time technically) education.
The age we need to "worry" about is 21-24 - where it instinctively feels the best it's ever been for getting opportunities

When I was at uni, many decades ago, the rugby 1st XV played every Saturday (uni league matches) and some Wednesdays (friendlies). The season was about 10 weeks before Xmas and the same after. My flatmate who played at No 8 for City U played about 30 games. Is that still the sort of top junior amateur rate of playing?

[Banquo]

Talk in the papers the last couple of days about an U20s league being set up, potentially even starting next year. Not sure what that'd mean for the Championship,

Really? I'd have thought it was pretty obvious - it means "F*** 'em, get back, I'm alright Jack, keep your hands off of my stack" much as it has been whenever PRL did anything within the last 20 years.

but the stats say that our U20s are averaging 7 club games per season, even with loans, which isn't enough

I'd need the definition of "enough" given that we're talking such a young age, and mostly still in full-time technically) education.
The age we need to "worry" about is 21-24 - where it instinctively feels the best it's ever been for getting opportunities

I think those stats refer to the ex- U20's who graduated into senior rugby

[Epaminondas Pules]

2011 was a phenomenal year group (not just for us either) that saw the largest transition from age grade into senior rugby at the highest levels. Factor in also each year group is actually made up of two years or even three. Think of it like a school first team, a mix of upper sixth, lower sixth who have another year for the first team and a smattering of 5th formers potentially who are ‘playing up’.

What we have currently (this years U20 cup winners) is effectively a sensational year group at that level on a par with 2011, but also the next group who are equally as good, the current U18 crop this year. And a group who graduated last year (CCS, Fisilau etc.) who are making inroads at prem and above.

In theory we are stacked as we ever have been and more, but that only works if we actually manage the development into senior, international and ultimately world class players. Which we’ve been historically cack at!

O'Shea reckons they are better apparently

England Under-20 returned to the top step of the podium last year, winning the Six Nations and the World title. They began this year’s Six Nations with a victory over Ireland in Cork. O’Shea believes the under-18s are even better. There is reason to be optimistic in the long term.

Source: https://x.com/TimesSport/status/1887244813713698904

I think he’s right in terms of raw talent. It has taken a long time to unfuck the Dean Ryan era, but it’s now in a good state, with a view that age grade rugby should effectively be a continual conveyor belt and that it needs to continue post school. That next step is crucial.

They talk about centres and lock in the article and it is an area of significant strength coming through. I could name 5 current U20 eligible players, without even trying, who have the potential to go very far in terms of senior rugby. And then the 18s have another 2 or 3 obvious candidates.

Centres is similar of slightly skewed as we’re producing players who can play multi position as well as more classic positional players. Like an Angus Hall in the former and Nick Lilley in the latter category.

In its simplest form, I can honestly say I am more excited by what I am seeing today than I ever have been with the pathways. Both in terms of talent but also structure. If; IF we get the next phase right then our conversion from prospect to talent realisation will be formidable.

[Epaminondas Pules]

as an adjunct, the next stage of development for the u20's is critical, and I really hope that PRL and the Tier 2 board and the RFU can get this right; each U20 needs a proper development plan and regular rugby somewhere. Warehousing young talent just isn't acceptable.

This!