England vs SA

[Mikey Brown]

I hope Martin and Underhill are actually properly fit.

Why wouldn't Underhill be?

Martin was thought to be injured, so fair enough - but Underhill played 3 in a row before disappearing with England - It's not like he's just returned with none or a handful of minutes under his belt this season

Just heard Youngs saying Underhill actually was left out at the beginning of the Autumn because of an ankle injury. I'm not sure if he's saying that was picked up before camp or not. Clearly he's done enough to leapfrog Ben Curry though.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Just seen the two sides and comparing them I think just one of our players would make their 23.

....Itoje?

Yep. Other than that I don;t think we would trouble their selectors.

[Banquo]

Just seen the two sides and comparing them I think just one of our players would make their 23.

....Itoje?

Yes. Were he not injured, a second would be IFW. I don't think Jack Willis would be far off either. Our three best players, IMO.

I don't think either of the latter two would make their 23, Making that claim against Willis- I'm a big fan- is pretty large, given his paucity of international achievement (not completely down to him in fairness).

[jngf]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. I'll be amazed if we don't simply concede the game at half time, what with them having a tall blindside.

[Epaminondas Pules]

....Itoje?

Yes. Were he not injured, a second would be IFW. I don't think Jack Willis would be far off either. Our three best players, IMO.

I don't think either of the latter two would make their 23, Making that claim against Willis- I'm a big fan- is pretty large, given his paucity of international achievement (not completely down to him in fairness).

I think IFW and a couple of others would make their overall squad and get plenty of games as they rotate their wider squad that is.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Yep. I'll be amazed if we don't simply concede the game at half time, what with them having a tall blindside.

If it was Eddie Jones we’d concede after 30 mins cause that’s real coaching. So there is progress

[TheDasher]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

Size isn't everything but I'm conscious of this too. Earl just doesn't help when you're looking to field a hefty pack... Earl and Underhill together don't help you field a lumpy back row, Genge and Baxter are not big by modern behemoth prop standards and neither Itoje or Martin are really big locks. Isiekwe and Dombrandt are both very big lads but as we've all said, they're underpowered/don't have the punch. It's not everything but it doesn't help to feel underpowered against this lot... Tom Willis, Ted Hill, Tom Pearson, Jonny Hill would help to have as options. Hey ho. Frankly I'd rather have Freeman in the centres with Roebuck starting rather than watch DeAllende batter Slade for 80 mins too. Let's see!

[Stom]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

Size isn't everything but I'm conscious of this too. Earl just doesn't help when you're looking to field a hefty pack... Earl and Underhill together don't help you field a lumpy back row, Genge and Baxter are not big by modern behemoth prop standards and neither Itoje or Martin are really big locks. Isiekwe and Dombrandt are both very big lads but as we've all said, they're underpowered/don't have the punch. It's not everything but it doesn't help to feel underpowered against this lot... Tom Willis, Ted Hill, Tom Pearson, Jonny Hill would help to have as options. Hey ho. Frankly I'd rather have Freeman in the centres with Roebuck starting rather than watch DeAllende batter Slade for 80 mins too. Let's see!

So go round them, not through them...

[FKAS]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

Size isn't everything but I'm conscious of this too. Earl just doesn't help when you're looking to field a hefty pack... Earl and Underhill together don't help you field a lumpy back row, Genge and Baxter are not big by modern behemoth prop standards and neither Itoje or Martin are really big locks. Isiekwe and Dombrandt are both very big lads but as we've all said, they're underpowered/don't have the punch. It's not everything but it doesn't help to feel underpowered against this lot... Tom Willis, Ted Hill, Tom Pearson, Jonny Hill would help to have as options. Hey ho. Frankly I'd rather have Freeman in the centres with Roebuck starting rather than watch DeAllende batter Slade for 80 mins too. Let's see!

Earl and Underhill don't help in terms of physicality but it you're wanting to run a high intensity blitz then their mobility and work rate is very useful. Underhill in defence could be a massive plus for us, stop South Africa rumbling forward up front and they are much easier to beat, particularly with Libbok at 10 who's not the best game manager but who will set the Boks backs running free with front foot ball.

Johnny Hill is a big lump with a high work rate and in theory could still come good at international level. Needs to actually get back to playing for Sale first though.

[TheDasher]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

Size isn't everything but I'm conscious of this too. Earl just doesn't help when you're looking to field a hefty pack... Earl and Underhill together don't help you field a lumpy back row, Genge and Baxter are not big by modern behemoth prop standards and neither Itoje or Martin are really big locks. Isiekwe and Dombrandt are both very big lads but as we've all said, they're underpowered/don't have the punch. It's not everything but it doesn't help to feel underpowered against this lot... Tom Willis, Ted Hill, Tom Pearson, Jonny Hill would help to have as options. Hey ho. Frankly I'd rather have Freeman in the centres with Roebuck starting rather than watch DeAllende batter Slade for 80 mins too. Let's see!

So go round them, not through them...

Yes in theory but we're not ultimately good enough at that are we. Go round them but knock the ball on, get hammered in the scrum. Go round them but give away a penalty, get hammered again in the scrum. Go round them, oh no they have the ball and they're carrying through us because their stronger etc etc. The best teams will have a balance of all good things but if our aim is to be World Champs (which it should be) then we need to be physically more dominant otherwise it just won't happen.

[TheDasher]

Boks 2nd and backrows tall and compared to ours - their blindside’s taller than our locks

Size isn't everything but I'm conscious of this too. Earl just doesn't help when you're looking to field a hefty pack... Earl and Underhill together don't help you field a lumpy back row, Genge and Baxter are not big by modern behemoth prop standards and neither Itoje or Martin are really big locks. Isiekwe and Dombrandt are both very big lads but as we've all said, they're underpowered/don't have the punch. It's not everything but it doesn't help to feel underpowered against this lot... Tom Willis, Ted Hill, Tom Pearson, Jonny Hill would help to have as options. Hey ho. Frankly I'd rather have Freeman in the centres with Roebuck starting rather than watch DeAllende batter Slade for 80 mins too. Let's see!

Earl and Underhill don't help in terms of physicality but it you're wanting to run a high intensity blitz then their mobility and work rate is very useful. Underhill in defence could be a massive plus for us, stop South Africa rumbling forward up front and they are much easier to beat, particularly with Libbok at 10 who's not the best game manager but who will set the Boks backs running free with front foot ball.

Johnny Hill is a big lump with a high work rate and in theory could still come good at international level. Needs to actually get back to playing for Sale first though.

My point was not about Earl or Underhill individually but together, against a Bok pack of this size, Earl and Underhill together do not form two thirds of a big back row. I love Underhill and love the idea that he'll knock some of these Boks backwards but again, I'd like one of them on the pitch and to have Ted Hill, T Willis and Pearson circling too.

Jonny Hill isn't playing of course so wasn't available for selection. I mention him as someone who'd certainly help, but if only... Frustrating that there aren't one or two more really powerful locks around... a few coming through for the next few years though I guess. Ultimately there's a strong possibility that we get physically overpowered and I don't feel that Sloppy Ballsack is picking all the right players to counter it.

[Oakboy]

SB has chosen to have Earl at 8 and Dombrandt at 20. He could have had T Willis at 8 with Ted Hill at 20. Any danger of us being out-muscled over 80 minutes needs to take that choice into account.

[Danno]

Dunno about Jonny Hill, the last time he played the Boks he managed to reverse a pen by throwing Faf to ground, simultaneously screwing up the game and also our ability as fans to sneer at Etzebeth's inclination to throw players to the ground by their neck all the time.

[Mikey Brown]

SB has chosen to have Earl at 8 and Dombrandt at 20. He could have had T Willis at 8 with Ted Hill at 20.

I’ve got to admire your persistence on this topic. I think Borthwick is literally the only England fan left that doesn’t hold (roughly) this opinion.

[Banquo]

SB has chosen to have Earl at 8 and Dombrandt at 20. He could have had T Willis at 8 with Ted Hill at 20. Any danger of us being out-muscled over 80 minutes needs to take that choice into account.

True but how many caps have they got between them….

[Oakboy]

SB has chosen to have Earl at 8 and Dombrandt at 20. He could have had T Willis at 8 with Ted Hill at 20. Any danger of us being out-muscled over 80 minutes needs to take that choice into account.

True but how many caps have they got between them….

What amazes me is how many Dombrandt has got despite rarely (never?) impressing. Presumably, SB and crew still expect him to produce and their faith is so strong that they see no sense in giving Willis a try. For the specific physical challenge of SA that takes some explaining, IMO. A compromise, obviously, would be Willis on the bench ahead of Dombrandt, leaving Earl to start. Then, I remember that he called Hill into the squad for some reason despite having no intention (apparently) of using him.

[Banquo]

SB has chosen to have Earl at 8 and Dombrandt at 20. He could have had T Willis at 8 with Ted Hill at 20. Any danger of us being out-muscled over 80 minutes needs to take that choice into account.

True but how many caps have they got between them….

What amazes me is how many Dombrandt has got despite rarely (never?) impressing. Presumably, SB and crew still expect him to produce and their faith is so strong that they see no sense in giving Willis a try. For the specific physical challenge of SA that takes some explaining, IMO. A compromise, obviously, would be Willis on the bench ahead of Dombrandt, leaving Earl to start. Then, I remember that he called Hill into the squad for some reason despite having no intention (apparently) of using him.

Hill is the biggest oddity to me tbh

[TheDasher]

Dunno about Jonny Hill, the last time he played the Boks he managed to reverse a pen by throwing Faf to ground, simultaneously screwing up the game and also our ability as fans to sneer at Etzebeth's inclination to throw players to the ground by their neck all the time.

Agreed that's a problem with him as has been said on here before. I'd assume with a manager telling him sternly to cut that out he might do so. As a player though, brainfarts aside, I've always rated him. Irrelevant now though.

[Which Tyler]

I'm surprised you feel much differently.

You're surprised that a Bath fan has a broad familiarity with which Bath players have played rugby this season?

Just heard Youngs saying Underhill actually was left out at the beginning of the Autumn because of an ankle injury. I'm not sure if he's saying that was picked up before camp or not. Clearly he's done enough to leapfrog Ben Curry though.

Picked up,and operated on during Pre-season - hence missing the first 2 rounds of Prem action.

[TheDasher]

True but how many caps have they got between them….

What amazes me is how many Dombrandt has got despite rarely (never?) impressing. Presumably, SB and crew still expect him to produce and their faith is so strong that they see no sense in giving Willis a try. For the specific physical challenge of SA that takes some explaining, IMO. A compromise, obviously, would be Willis on the bench ahead of Dombrandt, leaving Earl to start. Then, I remember that he called Hill into the squad for some reason despite having no intention (apparently) of using him.

Hill is the biggest oddity to me tbh

Other big advantage of Hill is the he's got the engine... CCS may not yet. Hill (when I've watched Bath) doesn't seem to tire noticeably.

[Banquo]

What amazes me is how many Dombrandt has got despite rarely (never?) impressing. Presumably, SB and crew still expect him to produce and their faith is so strong that they see no sense in giving Willis a try. For the specific physical challenge of SA that takes some explaining, IMO. A compromise, obviously, would be Willis on the bench ahead of Dombrandt, leaving Earl to start. Then, I remember that he called Hill into the squad for some reason despite having no intention (apparently) of using him.

Hill is the biggest oddity to me tbh

Other big advantage of Hill is the he's got the engine... CCS may not yet. Hill (when I've watched Bath) doesn't seem to tire noticeably.

Good engine, rapid, good hands. Possibly perceived as luxury okapi

[Mikey Brown]

I'm surprised you feel much differently.

You're surprised that a Bath fan has a broad familiarity with which Bath players have played rugby this season?

Just heard Youngs saying Underhill actually was left out at the beginning of the Autumn because of an ankle injury. I'm not sure if he's saying that was picked up before camp or not. Clearly he's done enough to leapfrog Ben Curry though.

Picked up,and operated on during Pre-season - hence missing the first 2 rounds of Prem action.

I’m not really sure what you’re taking issue with. Saying Underhill has a terrible injury record and I hope he’s fully fit, having not played for a few weeks?

I didn’t find it very clear from what Youngs was saying whether this has still been an issue in camp or not.

[Oakboy]

I'm surprised you feel much differently.

You're surprised that a Bath fan has a broad familiarity with which Bath players have played rugby this season?

Just heard Youngs saying Underhill actually was left out at the beginning of the Autumn because of an ankle injury. I'm not sure if he's saying that was picked up before camp or not. Clearly he's done enough to leapfrog Ben Curry though.

Picked up,and operated on during Pre-season - hence missing the first 2 rounds of Prem action.

I’m not really sure what you’re taking issue with. Saying Underhill has a terrible injury record and I hope he’s fully fit, having not played for a few weeks?

I didn’t find it very clear from what Youngs was saying whether this has still been an issue in camp or not.

I'm certainly left wondering where a fit Underhill stands in the 7 shirt ranking in SB's mind - especially compared with, say, a 'not fully recovered' Curry.

I stand by my 'shambolic' description of back row selection!

[Mellsblue]

From Warburton’s column:
‘Against Australia, England conceded 17 line breaks. In the defeat by the All Blacks two weeks ago, they conceded 12 line breaks, then in the two Tests in the summer in New Zealand, those figures were 17 and 12 again — so in four Tests against quality opposition that’s 58 line breaks conceded. In comparison, England made 25, so teams are making more than double England’s number of line breaks.’

On the face of it, the defence hasn’t actually regressed that starkly, if it all. Is it a conditioning issue? I believe there’s some bloke called Alex who’s left. Has El-Abd only had time to tinker with the front line and not the scramble/sweep in behind? Is it just a Sleightholme issue with a newish player in probably the most difficult position in the system? Is it the players not going that extra hard for a head coach who seems to have lost his way? Is it all of the above.
As for our line break numbers. Is it not enough wiggling on the pitch and too much Wiggler off the pitch?