England vs SA

[Which Tyler]

We did much better than I expected against South Africa - by about as much as we did worse than I expected against Australia.
The weaknesses we expected to see were all on show, we just had enough tenacity to mitigate them better than expected.

Ultimately though, this is a results business, and I can't help compare this year to the year that got Eddie fired.

2022:
W: 5, D: 1, L: 6
6N: 3rd place
SI: W2, L1 in Australia
AI: W v Japan, D v NZ, L v Arg & SA

2024:
W: 4, D: 0, L: 7
6N: 3rd place
SI: W1 in Japan, L2 in NZ
AI: ? v Japan, L v NZ, Aus & SA

For me, Borthwick doesn't get any slack for the churn of assistant coaches - and nor did Eddie. Losing 1 is unfortunate, but this is a pattern, and it's literally his job to put a coaching team together, build them into a unit, and get them singing from the same hymn sheet.

SB is currently on a 48% win ratio; the 2nd worst for an England coach since 1985 (Andy Robinson being worse). Yes, worse than Johnno or Ashton, significantly worse than Eddie's 2nd cycle.

[Mellsblue]

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

If you think our games are of the same quality of Fra vs NZ then I’ll have whatever you’re drinking. I’d agree we’d never give up the try to Roigard but only because we never offload…
All fantastic excuses for losing again whilst easily losing shape in both attack and defence. We’ve got a fatal combo of players who aren’t good enough and coaches who aren’t good enough.
Kudos for working Steward into your argument despite his numerous mistakes and his direct running threat aiding Smith by receiving no passes from him that I can remember.

You don't always have to get the ball to be an effective direct running threat. He also did what Furbank failed miserably to do since the law variations and carry the ball back effectively and consistently to provide a platform to work from.

I'm not sure where this arrogance comes from that we have this god given right to be better than the best team in the world. Double world cup winning side with enviable depth (particularly in the tight five). Apparently should make no errors ever and never miss a tackle. Not like Kolbe has ever made defenders look silly before. Bizarre insistence on self flagellation, as Puja likes to say "other teams are allowed to be good". At the start of the Autumn the general consensus was 2 wins was the base aim, 3 wins would be great and no one suggested 4 wins because no one gave us a hope Vs South Africa. Yet we have them a good game, fixed a number of the issues from previous games and really should have been in a position to steal it at the death.

Other than the one catch and run, that I commentated on here as ‘class’, I suppose we’ll disagree about how good a carrying threat Steward is and whether it helped Smith. I commented to Banquo after the NZ match that the new laws may mean Steward has to come in but it’s laughable that he’s some attacking threat that the oppo particularly worry about.
I can’t even be bothered with responding to the arrogance claims. See my response to Puja before the match started re acceptable results.

[fivepointer]

Ugo spoke for most of us post match.

Really this isnt good enough. Too many individual errors, poor options, muddled thinking and slack execution.

Little point delving into specific players. Frankly no one is doing themselves much justice. I do think we have a major problem with onfield leadership but also the messaging from the coaches looks to be way off beam. There isnt one part of out game that we could say is in top class shape.

[Mellsblue]

I take it all back. Stephen Jones agrees with me. We’re on the right path afterall.

[Stom]

The NZ Vs France game is littered with errors. See the Aldritt offload for Roigard to score for example. Multiple interceptions, missed tackles and handling errors. It's an absorbing game though.

We lost to the best team in the world in a competitive game where they scored a try that a competent TMO would have chalked of and even then we had them sweating late in the game.

The not straight throw was inexcusable 5m out with the Boks a man down and on a warning another card was coming. I can excuse some missed tackles against players of the calibre The Boks fielded. We played faster and more consistently across the game than in previous weeks, or at least until Randall came on but that could be the forwards tiring.

The tactics largely worked, kicking to compete with a bigger back three saw us do well aerially. Smith given another direct running threat and quicker ruck ball from JvP flourished. The only flack I'd throw at the coaching setup was the overly conservative EPS selection leaving us a limited bench. Isiekwe, Randall and Dombrandt have never been up to this level. Cole is no longer, though at least he did alright at the scrum. We paid the price for a poor squad selection.

If you think our games are of the same quality of Fra vs NZ then I’ll have whatever you’re drinking. I’d agree we’d never give up the try to Roigard but only because we never offload…
All fantastic excuses for losing again whilst easily losing shape in both attack and defence. We’ve got a fatal combo of players who aren’t good enough and coaches who aren’t good enough.
Kudos for working Steward into your argument despite his numerous mistakes and his direct running threat aiding Smith by receiving no passes from him that I can remember.

You don't always have to get the ball to be an effective direct running threat. He also did what Furbank failed miserably to do since the law variations and carry the ball back effectively and consistently to provide a platform to work from.

I'm not sure where this arrogance comes from that we have this god given right to be better than the best team in the world. Double world cup winning side with enviable depth (particularly in the tight five). Apparently should make no errors ever and never miss a tackle. Not like Kolbe has ever made defenders look silly before. Bizarre insistence on self flagellation, as Puja likes to say "other teams are allowed to be good". At the start of the Autumn the general consensus was 2 wins was the base aim, 3 wins would be great and no one suggested 4 wins because no one gave us a hope Vs South Africa. Yet we have them a good game, fixed a number of the issues from previous games and really should have been in a position to steal it at the death.

No, it's not that. Because the scoreline is not in isolation from the performance. And the Boks absolutely shat the bed yesterday. They were awful, and not awful because we were forcing them to play poorly, but giving away stupid penalties, making mistakes in ruck entry, not hitting the right lines, and dropping the ball.

And while we might have got (relatively) close to them on the scoreboard (and it's not arrogance to say that a Tier 1 nation shouldn't really be losing to another tier 1 nation by more than a score and a bit...), our performance when given the chance to win was awful. We just could not take that chance, despite the Boks giving us chance after chance.

Other teams are also allowed to be poor. And this was a poor performance from SA. Do that against Ireland, NZ, or France, and they lose.

We're not upset because we lost to South Africa, we're upset because of how we played.

[Oakboy]

Ugo spoke for most of us post match.

Really this isnt good enough. Too many individual errors, poor options, muddled thinking and slack execution.

Little point delving into specific players. Frankly no one is doing themselves much justice. I do think we have a major problem with onfield leadership but also the messaging from the coaches looks to be way off beam. There isnt one part of out game that we could say is in top class shape.

As ever, we need to be realistic. We can go round and round in circles debating how good our players are. What matters, though, is the extent to which Borthwick is getting the best out of what we have. In terms of selection, tactics and preparation, I think he has been found out as not good enough.

Crucially, that extra bite to be found in togetherness of the team unit is missing. I think that is why we are good in periods but poor in error recovery. The old adage about a team being better/worse than the sum of its parts is where Borthwick is simply a failure. It's to do with captaincy and leadership. It's to do with collective and individual character. It's to do with ruthlessness when half-chances occur. It's to do with busting a gut to make that last-ditch cover tackle to cover for a team-mate's mistake. It's to do with instantaneous decision-making.

Players who don't make World XVs can still perform at the top level if they are an integral part of a good team. We are not a good team.

[Stom]

I'll be honest, from what I've seen and heard of Soupy Bananas so far, he seems like an excellent coach but a pretty terrible Head Coach...

[Banquo]

Thought forwards fronted up well and stayed in the fight, though practically zero carrying yards and whacked backwards a lot. Set piece was a very mixed bag. Both 9's were poor- JVP's service was hampered by terrible ball presentation and ruck technique (just watch NZ v France as a comparison- look how say Beauden Barrett presents the ball in different situations) and he is a charge down waiting to happen, they just targeted it well. Onfield leadership....zero. SA were pretty ropey, and were there for the taking imo.

And seriously, no one says we have a god given right to be winning. Its how we are losing and the avoidable errors that grind the gears, from execrable bench selection, to poor defending (again yesterday, and I'm not looking at Steward- I wouldn't have expected him to stop either Williams or Kolbe in those situations), to soft tries, to lineout malfunctions, to mad subbing. It all looks a mess....and yet, close to beating decent sides.

[Banquo]

I'll be honest, from what I've seen and heard of Soupy Bananas so far, he seems like an excellent coach but a pretty terrible Head Coach...

which was pretty much what everyone said before he was appointed- at intl level anyway.

[Banquo]

Ugo spoke for most of us post match.

Really this isnt good enough. Too many individual errors, poor options, muddled thinking and slack execution.

Little point delving into specific players. Frankly no one is doing themselves much justice. I do think we have a major problem with onfield leadership but also the messaging from the coaches looks to be way off beam. There isnt one part of out game that we could say is in top class shape.

As ever, we need to be realistic. We can go round and round in circles debating how good our players are. What matters, though, is the extent to which Borthwick is getting the best out of what we have. In terms of selection, tactics and preparation, I think he has been found out as not good enough.

Crucially, that extra bite to be found in togetherness of the team unit is missing. I think that is why we are good in periods but poor in error recovery. The old adage about a team being better/worse than the sum of its parts is where Borthwick is simply a failure. It's to do with captaincy and leadership. It's to do with collective and individual character. It's to do with ruthlessness when half-chances occur. It's to do with busting a gut to make that last-ditch cover tackle to cover for a team-mate's mistake. It's to do with instantaneous decision-making.

Players who don't make World XVs can still perform at the top level if they are an integral part of a good team. We are not a good team.

Pretty much- we shouldn't expect to be beating top sides regularly with the current player pool frankly (we simply don't have a midfield for example, or much carrying up front, or convincing half back partnerships), but good coaches make sides better than the sum of their parts. Very valid point on error recovery- it possibly does indicate a less than committed/believing group of players.

[Stom]

Thought forwards fronted up well and stayed in the fight, though practically zero carrying yards and whacked backwards a lot. Set piece was a very mixed bag. Both 9's were poor- JVP's service was hampered by terrible ball presentation and ruck technique (just watch NZ v France as a comparison- look how say Beauden Barrett presents the ball in different situations) and he is a charge down waiting to happen, they just targeted it well. Onfield leadership....zero. SA were pretty ropey, and were there for the taking imo.

And seriously, no one says we have a god given right to be winning. Its how we are losing and the avoidable errors that grind the gears, from execrable bench selection, to poor defending (again yesterday, and I'm not looking at Steward- I wouldn't have expected him to stop either Williams or Kolbe in those situations), to soft tries, to lineout malfunctions, to mad subbing. It all looks a mess....and yet, close to beating decent sides.

On the zero carrying...what do we expect when we pick a pack for tackling...when our 8 is a converted flanker with the carrying power of a small child it says something about what our priorities are...

And then, when those priorities are failed at time and again because you've put together a team so scared of making a mistake they second guess themselves every other play and end up all over the place...completely negating the fact we've already picked a pack full of tacklers...yeah, there's a reason we suck right now, and it's not the players' fault.

[Oakboy]

I'll be honest, from what I've seen and heard of Soupy Bananas so far, he seems like an excellent coach but a pretty terrible Head Coach...

which was pretty much what everyone said before he was appointed- at intl level anyway.

No argument there but one wonders why the RFU selection panel concluded differently.

I'd have imagination/innovation somewhere in my HC job specification requirement list. Presumably, the panel did not.

[Banquo]

Thought forwards fronted up well and stayed in the fight, though practically zero carrying yards and whacked backwards a lot. Set piece was a very mixed bag. Both 9's were poor- JVP's service was hampered by terrible ball presentation and ruck technique (just watch NZ v France as a comparison- look how say Beauden Barrett presents the ball in different situations) and he is a charge down waiting to happen, they just targeted it well. Onfield leadership....zero. SA were pretty ropey, and were there for the taking imo.

And seriously, no one says we have a god given right to be winning. Its how we are losing and the avoidable errors that grind the gears, from execrable bench selection, to poor defending (again yesterday, and I'm not looking at Steward- I wouldn't have expected him to stop either Williams or Kolbe in those situations), to soft tries, to lineout malfunctions, to mad subbing. It all looks a mess....and yet, close to beating decent sides.

On the zero carrying...what do we expect when we pick a pack for tackling...when our 8 is a converted flanker with the carrying power of a small child it says something about what our priorities are...

And then, when those priorities are failed at time and again because you've put together a team so scared of making a mistake they second guess themselves every other play and end up all over the place...completely negating the fact we've already picked a pack full of tacklers...yeah, there's a reason we suck right now, and it's not the players' fault.

Who else are you picking for carrying out of interest? No sure the front 5 would be any different, so what’s your back row?

[Banquo]

Ugo spoke for most of us post match.

Really this isnt good enough. Too many individual errors, poor options, muddled thinking and slack execution.

Little point delving into specific players. Frankly no one is doing themselves much justice. I do think we have a major problem with onfield leadership but also the messaging from the coaches looks to be way off beam. There isnt one part of out game that we could say is in top class shape.

Ugo was a sh@thouse to Lawes tho.

[Stom]

Thought forwards fronted up well and stayed in the fight, though practically zero carrying yards and whacked backwards a lot. Set piece was a very mixed bag. Both 9's were poor- JVP's service was hampered by terrible ball presentation and ruck technique (just watch NZ v France as a comparison- look how say Beauden Barrett presents the ball in different situations) and he is a charge down waiting to happen, they just targeted it well. Onfield leadership....zero. SA were pretty ropey, and were there for the taking imo.

And seriously, no one says we have a god given right to be winning. Its how we are losing and the avoidable errors that grind the gears, from execrable bench selection, to poor defending (again yesterday, and I'm not looking at Steward- I wouldn't have expected him to stop either Williams or Kolbe in those situations), to soft tries, to lineout malfunctions, to mad subbing. It all looks a mess....and yet, close to beating decent sides.

On the zero carrying...what do we expect when we pick a pack for tackling...when our 8 is a converted flanker with the carrying power of a small child it says something about what our priorities are...

And then, when those priorities are failed at time and again because you've put together a team so scared of making a mistake they second guess themselves every other play and end up all over the place...completely negating the fact we've already picked a pack full of tacklers...yeah, there's a reason we suck right now, and it's not the players' fault.

Who else are you picking for carrying out of interest? No sure the front 5 would be any different, so what’s your back row?

Well... it's not just backrow. I love Jamie George. I think he's been wonderful for England over the years, and he's high quality. But considering the players around him, he just does not have the attacking dynamism I'd want to see anymore.

So I'd pick Dan ahead of him.

And then in the backrow, I'd pick a different 8, one who can actually beat the first tackle in tight. Which probably does mean Willis. He's not in this squad, though, so Stupidly Backwards won't pick him. So we either pick Dombrandt there or more CCS and pick Hill.

But, again, not sure that'd make much difference, as it's a team-wide issue caused by the HC being a numbers guy who is treating every phase of play like it's a set piece.

[FKAS]

If you think our games are of the same quality of Fra vs NZ then I’ll have whatever you’re drinking. I’d agree we’d never give up the try to Roigard but only because we never offload…
All fantastic excuses for losing again whilst easily losing shape in both attack and defence. We’ve got a fatal combo of players who aren’t good enough and coaches who aren’t good enough.
Kudos for working Steward into your argument despite his numerous mistakes and his direct running threat aiding Smith by receiving no passes from him that I can remember.

You don't always have to get the ball to be an effective direct running threat. He also did what Furbank failed miserably to do since the law variations and carry the ball back effectively and consistently to provide a platform to work from.

I'm not sure where this arrogance comes from that we have this god given right to be better than the best team in the world. Double world cup winning side with enviable depth (particularly in the tight five). Apparently should make no errors ever and never miss a tackle. Not like Kolbe has ever made defenders look silly before. Bizarre insistence on self flagellation, as Puja likes to say "other teams are allowed to be good". At the start of the Autumn the general consensus was 2 wins was the base aim, 3 wins would be great and no one suggested 4 wins because no one gave us a hope Vs South Africa. Yet we have them a good game, fixed a number of the issues from previous games and really should have been in a position to steal it at the death.

No, it's not that. Because the scoreline is not in isolation from the performance. And the Boks absolutely shat the bed yesterday. They were awful, and not awful because we were forcing them to play poorly, but giving away stupid penalties, making mistakes in ruck entry, not hitting the right lines, and dropping the ball.

And while we might have got (relatively) close to them on the scoreboard (and it's not arrogance to say that a Tier 1 nation shouldn't really be losing to another tier 1 nation by more than a score and a bit...), our performance when given the chance to win was awful. We just could not take that chance, despite the Boks giving us chance after chance.

Other teams are also allowed to be poor. And this was a poor performance from SA. Do that against Ireland, NZ, or France, and they lose.

We're not upset because we lost to South Africa, we're upset because of how we played.

Key difference in our views. For me we removed their ability to rumble up through the forwards and kick to compete. They lost their easy momentum wins and that made life more difficult for them. Rassie clearly anticipated an issue as he went with Libbok and Williams as the halfback combo as they'd bring a greater running threat.

[Banquo]

On the zero carrying...what do we expect when we pick a pack for tackling...when our 8 is a converted flanker with the carrying power of a small child it says something about what our priorities are...

And then, when those priorities are failed at time and again because you've put together a team so scared of making a mistake they second guess themselves every other play and end up all over the place...completely negating the fact we've already picked a pack full of tacklers...yeah, there's a reason we suck right now, and it's not the players' fault.

Who else are you picking for carrying out of interest? No sure the front 5 would be any different, so what’s your back row?

But, again, not sure that'd make much difference, a

well, quite (though I think Dan would have got rag dolled by SA if carrying)

[Danno]

We did much better than I expected against South Africa - by about as much as we did worse than I expected against Australia.
The weaknesses we expected to see were all on show, we just had enough tenacity to mitigate them better than expected.

Ultimately though, this is a results business, and I can't help compare this year to the year that got Eddie fired.

2022:
W: 5, D: 1, L: 6
6N: 3rd place
SI: W2, L1 in Australia
AI: W v Japan, D v NZ, L v Arg & SA

2024:
W: 4, D: 0, L: 7
6N: 3rd place
SI: W1 in Japan, L2 in NZ
AI: ? v Japan, L v NZ, Aus & SA

For me, Borthwick doesn't get any slack for the churn of assistant coaches - and nor did Eddie. Losing 1 is unfortunate, but this is a pattern, and it's literally his job to put a coaching team together, build them into a unit, and get them signing from the same hymn sheet.

SB is currently on a 48% win ratio; the 2nd worst for an England coach since 1985 (Andy Robinson being worse). Yes, worse than Johnno or Ashton, significantly worse than Eddie's 2nd cycle.

[Mellsblue]

We did much better than I expected against South Africa - by about as much as we did worse than I expected against Australia.
The weaknesses we expected to see were all on show, we just had enough tenacity to mitigate them better than expected.

Ultimately though, this is a results business, and I can't help compare this year to the year that got Eddie fired.

2022:
W: 5, D: 1, L: 6
6N: 3rd place
SI: W2, L1 in Australia
AI: W v Japan, D v NZ, L v Arg & SA

2024:
W: 4, D: 0, L: 7
6N: 3rd place
SI: W1 in Japan, L2 in NZ
AI: ? v Japan, L v NZ, Aus & SA

For me, Borthwick doesn't get any slack for the churn of assistant coaches - and nor did Eddie. Losing 1 is unfortunate, but this is a pattern, and it's literally his job to put a coaching team together, build them into a unit, and get them signing from the same hymn sheet.

SB is currently on a 48% win ratio; the 2nd worst for an England coach since 1985 (Andy Robinson being worse). Yes, worse than Johnno or Ashton, significantly worse than Eddie's 2nd cycle.

That’s the issue, isn’t it. Look at the results in isolation and you can say that we’re close here, if things had gone a little bit differently there etc etc we’d be a good team but they haven’t and they don’t look like they’re on the horizon, given there’s been no discernible improvements. Ultimately, if you’re happy with the last 14 months then you’re happy with being the plucky underdog who scrape the odd win against the big boys.

If Shortlytobe Betweenjobs is given his marching orders before the end of the season then you’ve got to feel sorry for El-Abd. He would go from demigod status to unemployed in under a year.

[Insouciant]

On reflection I think there have been some positives:
Marcus Smith,
the scrum has been solid if not spectacular - but that's something @ least as I think we all feared the worst v NZ & SA,
CCS / Earl / Underhill all look good, whether they should be a combo is another matter,
2nd row combo is pretty good,

Negatives:
Restarts - we were so poor at these yesterday, I'm sure we lost points straight after scoring more than once,
Opposition errors - SA made a whole bunch yesterday especially late on and we didn't have the quality to take advantage of them - 2 or 3 lineouts in their 22 and we got nothing from them. LCD and the dummy throw, oof,
Centres... I don't mind Slade and Lawrence individually, but it doesn't seem to be working (this area has been a problem for some time...)
The bench - not all, but a lot of it is not really adding much to the late game performance, some of the chaps being picked haven't shown much in any of their performances previously and it's a mystery why they are still getting picked,
Defence... a lot of missed tackles (maybe the fault of the system maybe not..) .. It's early days with the system I guess but, it's not helping atm.

Mixed:
Steward - great catching under the high ball, not so great at one on one defending and turning circle of an oil tanker

[Oakboy]

Do you really think Earl has looked good?

[Insouciant]

Do you really think Earl has looked good?

Yeah I think carried decently yesterday (not commenting on the previous two games, missed them both due to being out of the country). Him and Slade did miss the tackle on De Allende for one of the tries, and I'm sure people with better memories than me can pick out other stuff he did badly. Whether he should be our 8 going forwards is another question, but I think he's a good player. It's more than I think of most of the bench.

My thinking is least in the back row we are potentially good if Single Badger opens his eyes and drops some of the dross. Between Underhill, Earl, CCS, Willis, Hill, Pearson etc .. it feels like there's a few decent options. I'm think I'm trying to be optimistic.

[Which Tyler]

Ultimately though, this is a results business, and I can't help compare this year to the year that got Eddie fired.

Just thought I'd have a look at the year that got the other "recent" coaches fired.

Eddie Jones: as above.

Stuart Lancaster: Was the world cup performance and confusion, rather than the year as a whole, but:
2015:
W: 8, D: 0, L: 4
6N: 2nd place
RWC: W: 2, L: 2 - crashed out at the group stage

Martin Johnson:
2011: W: 10, D: 0, L: 3
6N: 1st place
RWC: W: 4, L: 1 - 4th place

Brian Ashton:
2007/8: W: 9, D: 0, L: 8
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in South Africa
RWC: W: 5, L: 2 - 2nd place
6N: 2nd place

Andy Robinson:
2006: W: 3, D: 0, L: 8
6N: 4th place
SI: W: 0, L: 2 in Australia
AI: W v SA, L: 3 v NZ, Arg & SA

[Mellsblue]

Bring back Johnno!

[Oakboy]

All the stats show are similarities of approach. Maybe, it is time for a radical appointment, not just of the individual, but in terms of defining the role. 'Build a team for 4 years time. Results in years 1 and 2 immaterial. Signs of progress by year 3 necessary. All results in year 4 crucial.' Based on the last 20 years, what is there to lose?