Ireland vs England - Sat 4.45pm

[Oakboy]

So pick players you think are inferior just to get cohesiveness! If they can’t get M. Smith to work then try F. Smith. It’s a bit of indictment that they can’t given how much time they’ve had in camp to get it to work but I think the weaknesses in the coaching setup are pretty well known.

SB's selection has certainly put the coaching under the spotlight for this first match. A touch of shit or bust?

[Which Tyler]

How many games do decent international players need together to be cohesive?

That's going to be one those "impossible to answer" questions.
It's going to depend on the individual players - their game-intellect and adaptability
It's going to depend on the coaches - which player they want to adapt to which
It's going to depend on how different their instincts / club coaching are
It's going to depend on how close together those matches are - 5 matches straight in as 6N campaign will be a hell of a lot more useful then 1 6N then 2 SI then 1st and 4th AIs
It's going to depend on how you define "cohesive"; as it will be continual learning, they'll be more cohesive after 5 matches than after 1; and more cohesive still after 10, and better still after 20... etc

Hell, even Farrell became a passable IC - but only really because he was playing alongside his childhood friend and teammate

[Captainhaircut]

Well you get 12 games per year in a non World Cup. Everyone wants to try new players vs a Japan, Fiji or Italy so that maybe takes away 2 games.

Not exactly ludicrous amount of time. You also have problem whereby it’s not just “cohesion” but playing style. Northampton don’t run a blitz defence for example so does a couple of weeks for Dingwall or Freeman of playing a hard blitz actually ingrain those split second decisions? At the end of the 6N they’ll go back to their clubs for another 3 months and unlearn all that even if it did.

I’m not necessarily advocating for picking club combos but you can’t complain about it when you have made decisions counter to cohesion.

It’s why I find the Lions a weird concept when Ireland are 2 in the world. Surely you just pick the Ireland 15 to start given it’s an Ireland head coach and most decisions will be marginal anyway?

[Puja]

Semi-interesting article here about how England are hoping to address the midfield observations many have had - that Smith is an incredibly talented runner but hasn’t necessarily looked in sync with those around him.

I don’t know why it’s got such a weird headline.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... x-nations/

I guess we’ll see if those plans run in training survive real contact with an opposition, but at least it’s on the cards.

Loved this quote: "One of the great strengths we have is the Premiership, but it is a challenge that we spread players over nine clubs"

Ouch - not especially politic there from Shady! I'm assuming the club that he's presuming international players won't come from is Newcastle, although given selections, it could just as easily be Gloucester.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Well you get 12 games per year in a non World Cup. Everyone wants to try new players vs a Japan, Fiji or Italy so that maybe takes away 2 games.

Not exactly ludicrous amount of time. You also have problem whereby it’s not just “cohesion” but playing style. Northampton don’t run a blitz defence for example so does a couple of weeks for Dingwall or Freeman of playing a hard blitz actually ingrain those split second decisions? At the end of the 6N they’ll go back to their clubs for another 3 months and unlearn all that even if it did.

I’m not necessarily advocating for picking club combos but you can’t complain about it when you have made decisions counter to cohesion.

It’s why I find the Lions a weird concept when Ireland are 2 in the world. Surely you just pick the Ireland 15 to start given it’s an Ireland head coach and most decisions will be marginal anyway?

The converse, arguably, is how good some Barbarians sides can look after 10 minutes prep and a few drinks together.

[Mellsblue]

Well you get 12 games per year in a non World Cup. Everyone wants to try new players vs a Japan, Fiji or Italy so that maybe takes away 2 games.

Not exactly ludicrous amount of time. You also have problem whereby it’s not just “cohesion” but playing style. Northampton don’t run a blitz defence for example so does a couple of weeks for Dingwall or Freeman of playing a hard blitz actually ingrain those split second decisions? At the end of the 6N they’ll go back to their clubs for another 3 months and unlearn all that even if it did.

I’m not necessarily advocating for picking club combos but you can’t complain about it when you have made decisions counter to cohesion.

It’s why I find the Lions a weird concept when Ireland are 2 in the world. Surely you just pick the Ireland 15 to start given it’s an Ireland head coach and most decisions will be marginal anyway?

Everyone wants to try new players against Japan and Italy other Sticksto Basics…
F. Jones had the d looking pretty good and, ironically, said it took 12 games to implement his system.
It’s not just matches, though. There’s five matches in the 6N and 8 weeks in camp.

[Banquo]

So pick players you think are inferior just to get cohesiveness! If they can’t get M. Smith to work then try F. Smith. It’s a bit of indictment that they can’t given how much time they’ve had in camp to get it to work but I think the weaknesses in the coaching setup are pretty well known.

SB's selection has certainly put the coaching under the spotlight for this first match. A touch of shit or bust?

nice use of Shit Bust there!

[Mellsblue]

How many games do decent international players need together to be cohesive?

Might, say, 5 international games be more useful than 10 club games or whatever? Club pairings in a completely different game style (club to country) might even be counter-productive, arguably.

M. Smith isn’t your common and garden 10 so it will take longer.

[Oakboy]

Well you get 12 games per year in a non World Cup. Everyone wants to try new players vs a Japan, Fiji or Italy so that maybe takes away 2 games.

Not exactly ludicrous amount of time. You also have problem whereby it’s not just “cohesion” but playing style. Northampton don’t run a blitz defence for example so does a couple of weeks for Dingwall or Freeman of playing a hard blitz actually ingrain those split second decisions? At the end of the 6N they’ll go back to their clubs for another 3 months and unlearn all that even if it did.

I’m not necessarily advocating for picking club combos but you can’t complain about it when you have made decisions counter to cohesion.

It’s why I find the Lions a weird concept when Ireland are 2 in the world. Surely you just pick the Ireland 15 to start given it’s an Ireland head coach and most decisions will be marginal anyway?

Everyone wants to try new players against Japan and Italy other Sticksto Basics…
It’s not just matches, though. There’s five matches in the 6N and 6 weeks in camp.

Is it not 8 or 9 weeks in camp with the 'fun in the sun' bit beforehand and the gap weeks?

[Oakboy]

How many games do decent international players need together to be cohesive?

Might, say, 5 international games be more useful than 10 club games or whatever? Club pairings in a completely different game style (club to country) might even be counter-productive, arguably.

M. Smith isn’t your common and garden 10 so it will take longer.

Apart from Murley (who has loads of club experience with him) I wonder if any of the other backs have played less than 10 internationals with him. I'm just not sure how much excuse is left in the 'cohesive' quest. It's why I think Lawrence is at least as guilty as Slade as regards the centres. They must be well into double figures together, often with Marcus.

Or, it's the coaching!!?

[Mellsblue]

Well you get 12 games per year in a non World Cup. Everyone wants to try new players vs a Japan, Fiji or Italy so that maybe takes away 2 games.

Not exactly ludicrous amount of time. You also have problem whereby it’s not just “cohesion” but playing style. Northampton don’t run a blitz defence for example so does a couple of weeks for Dingwall or Freeman of playing a hard blitz actually ingrain those split second decisions? At the end of the 6N they’ll go back to their clubs for another 3 months and unlearn all that even if it did.

I’m not necessarily advocating for picking club combos but you can’t complain about it when you have made decisions counter to cohesion.

It’s why I find the Lions a weird concept when Ireland are 2 in the world. Surely you just pick the Ireland 15 to start given it’s an Ireland head coach and most decisions will be marginal anyway?

Everyone wants to try new players against Japan and Italy other Sticksto Basics…
It’s not just matches, though. There’s five matches in the 6N and 6 weeks in camp.

Is it not 8 or 9 weeks in camp with the 'fun in the sun' bit beforehand and the gap weeks?

Meant 8 weeks - fat fingers.

[Insouciant]

How many games do decent international players need together to be cohesive?

Might, say, 5 international games be more useful than 10 club games or whatever? Club pairings in a completely different game style (club to country) might even be counter-productive, arguably.

Whilst I can't speak from any personal experience, I'm pretty sure Jacques Nienaber said that the SA blitz defence took 18 games to properly bed in.

[jngf]

I must admit I’m looking forward to finally seeing how the Curry’s work together at test level - would be happier if they had Willis stuck between them though from the outset!

[Mikey Brown]

I’d never have guessed you’re interested to see how the back-row goes.

[jngf]

I’d never have guessed you’re interested to see how the back-row goes.

This one is particularly left field

[Oakboy]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

[Danno]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

They're (as almost always) proper scary when they turn it on. Absolutely unplayable. At least we have them at home...?

[FKAS]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

We also lost to France by only 2 points last year. France got some outrageously fortunate bounces off the ball in that one as well.

Not sure last year's teams can be compared to this year's. Most sides have a few changes.

[FKAS]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

They're (as almost always) proper scary when they turn it on. Absolutely unplayable. At least we have them at home...?

French attack seems to be lacking a bit of structure. It's all been about one of their xfactor players creating an opportunity for not a lot. Might work against us but they'll need a lot more against Ireland.

[Mr Mwenda]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

They're (as almost always) proper scary when they turn it on. Absolutely unplayable. At least we have them at home...?

French attack seems to be lacking a bit of structure. It's all been about one of their xfactor players creating an opportunity for not a lot. Might work against us but they'll need a lot more against Ireland.

They're not needing more, may be keeping the powder dry in game one.

[FKAS]

They're (as almost always) proper scary when they turn it on. Absolutely unplayable. At least we have them at home...?

French attack seems to be lacking a bit of structure. It's all been about one of their xfactor players creating an opportunity for not a lot. Might work against us but they'll need a lot more against Ireland.

They're not needing more, may be keeping the powder dry in game one.

I'm sure they aren't breaking out their trick plays etc but you'd want to play some phases in your structure so that you are finding fluency.

Ntamack might be in bother with that off field review.

[Mr Mwenda]

French attack seems to be lacking a bit of structure. It's all been about one of their xfactor players creating an opportunity for not a lot. Might work against us but they'll need a lot more against Ireland.

They're not needing more, may be keeping the powder dry in game one.

I'm sure they aren't breaking out their trick plays etc but you'd want to play some phases in your structure so that you are finding fluency.

Ntamack might be in bother with that off field review.

Yeah, could also be they're stagnating in preparation for a full on french implosion, fingers crossed!

[FKAS]

They're not needing more, may be keeping the powder dry in game one.

I'm sure they aren't breaking out their trick plays etc but you'd want to play some phases in your structure so that you are finding fluency.

Ntamack might be in bother with that off field review.

Yeah, could also be they're stagnating in preparation for a full on french implosion, fingers crossed!

Knowing our luck their attack coach will be fuming and will hammer them in training. Come next weekend they'll be sharp as a razor.

[francoisfou]

France beating Wales 28-0 at HT (a side we scraped a win against by 2 points last year).

They're (as almost always) proper scary when they turn it on. Absolutely unplayable. At least we have them at home...?

French attack seems to be lacking a bit of structure. It's all been about one of their xfactor players creating an opportunity for not a lot. Might work against us but they'll need a lot more against Ireland.

Yes, an unsatisfactory second half but at least they’ve not conceded any points…… yet.

[Scrumhead]

No Ntamack next week then …