Ireland vs England - Sat 4.45pm

[jngf]

[Puja]

the lineout was an issue and will remain so, so its quite a trade off

Was it though? We lost one through competition and one through LCD fucking up the throw. Every other lineout was clean ball, wasn't it?

Puja

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

[Cameo]

Let's leave moaning about the ref to the Welsh. England lost the composure after the Irish went ahead. Regardless of the call that's on England. Gutting but so it goes. The BP was deserved.

What did people make of Willis? I'd lost the ability to pay attention to his play by that stage, sadly.

I can’t agree. The invention of that penalty was a total game changer.

We didn’t lose the game because of it, but it was total fantasy and was a momentum swing, that simply should not happen.

Is all this moaning about the Itoje push? From the back angle, it didn't look like anything. From in front it was minor but clear I thought. I imagine the touch judge called it. Otherwise it looked like you won some you lose some. E.g. Ireland will feel they could have had more holding on pens and Murley could have been done for that try saver at the end.

Main thing for me about England is that again and again they look really dangerous in attack for a 20 minute spell and then revert to kicking it up in the air. I just don't get it. I wouldn't be surprised if you hammer someone (maybe Scotland) at some point but I'm also constantly surprised by how you can go from looking good to looking really average so quickly.

[Mr Mwenda]

Was it though? We lost one through competition and one through LCD fucking up the throw. Every other lineout was clean ball, wasn't it?

Puja

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

This seems about right to me. Chatting with an Irish mate during the match and he was very impressed by England's defence in the first half.

What I'd really like to see is some sign of England taking control of things. The initial period was all England but it always felt like Ireland would get their turn. Conversely, the Irish just felt utterly in command for much of the second half.

[Banquo]

Was it though? We lost one through competition and one through LCD fucking up the throw. Every other lineout was clean ball, wasn't it?

Puja

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

I merely said it was a trade off, are you disputing that?


(I will re watch the lineouts, agree on timing solution, but have to say more concerned than you are. You seem quite angry- your third para is a tad ott in many ways)
On the positives- welcome a more pragmatic system out wide, welcome higher, if currently unsustainable, line speed, and welcome competing at the breakdown and Steward running it back, and some more dents in attack. I dare not mention that we missed too many straightforward one on ones, shipped too many penalties and still kicked a bit sloppily and a bit too much . Much like the AIs, quite close to beating a very good team for about 50 mins.

[Banquo]

Are we defending Murley?

For me he looks out of his depth at this level, as much as the ‘tache suggests otherwise.

Martin is far from the enforcer I hoped he to be and Slade just lacks the pace, alas, to truly threaten defences.

And I cannot get my head around how static we are when taking ball into contact.

he made two very bad unforced errors.
indeed, Slade still looks a failed 10
we lack good tight carriers, which then means we dont get over the tackle, so effectively go backwards, next carrier then loses depth and so on

I know it was another post you made, but can’t be bothered to find it…

Did Murley drop 3? I remember he got one to contest, didn’t win it in the air, but it was a mess, and then there was nothing until his first big duck up, where it feels like he felt like he needed to get hold of the ball because of that earlier “mistake”, when he should have just let it bounce, it was too far away. The other time the ball bounced near him, he had no chance to get close and got done by a bounce. Zero he could have done there. Unless there was one I missed while my stream was playing up. Definitely possible.

I just feel like those are the exact kind of mistakes we’ve seen with England for ages, compounded by a debutant who isn’t an iceman tm.

And it’s something we see time and again: players are scared. They’re not feeling it. They’re hammered on getting x right, so when x goes wrong, they’re worried and they make mistakes. That’s piss poor.

I feel the same way about this England coaching team as I do about steward in 1v1 tackles.

The one where he got scragged in goal was dropped, in the sense that he misjudged it, almost missed it completely but touched it, hence trying to run it out

[Banquo]

My point is don’t get in a position to be stepped. Show him the outside and haul him down. Steward isn’t quick enough to do that so gets stepped repeatedly. Even BOD agrees with me and I reckon it’s a standard cut up for the oppo prior to any match vs England. As with most players, other than RICH LANE!!!, you have to pick your poison but it’s a glaring flaw to have as a 15.

I just don’t think it was the thing to be annoyed about on the try. He did show him the outside tho!

[Banquo]

Well. 4 years waiting for Murley to get a go and that was not what I’d hoped for. So, so gutted for him if that’s the only chance he gets.

The first missed catch was bad, but he did touch it and was right to try and run it back. He did actually get back over the line but not quite sure what happened from there. Still, the drop put the team in a horrible position which really swung the game.

The second was just mad. I’m not quite sure what he thought was happening, as he seemed to follow the ball quite carefully over the line. Maybe thought he’d grazed that one too, but then why wait? Just gutting for those to be the defining moments in a debut cap where he scored a try and had a hand in another.

We can bin him off and then hope the next guy in has a perfect game, but I’d really like to show a bit of faith in what we were trying to do, assuming Borthwick is confident of what that is.

Very strange, frustrating game all round really. Great to claw back the bonus point in the end but it shouldn’t have come to that.

England’s fast start, followed by a long period of looking completely out of it is very tiring to watch. I wonder what effect that has mentally, knowing that a fantastic start means basically nothing for your performance over 80.

This

[p/d]

Posted out of frustration last night. Shouldn’t have written Murley off after one outing.

Lots to like about what we are doing just a few bits of poor play and the a decision or two derailed us a bit.

Something to build on me thinks.

[FKAS]

Posted out of frustration last night. Shouldn’t have written Murley off after one outing.

Lots to like about what we are doing just a few bits of poor play and the a decision or two derailed us a bit.

Something to build on me thinks.

I think it'll depend on how he is when the squad meet up next week. If his head has dropped, his confidence isn't there then they'll have to drop him against France because he's 100% going to be targeted next weekend so if he's playing he's going to have to be backing himself and be chomping at the bit to do better. We'll also have to select a bench that has back three cover as well because if it is apparent his head has gone then we'll need to be able to take him off and Borthwick may want another 6-2 split against the big French pack.

Roebuck seems to be unfairly maligned on here as a kick chase option. 9 tries in 12 games for Sale, he's a good finisher. If he comes in we lose a little pace but gain a lot more physicality and security at the back.

[fivepointer]

The frustration is understandable.

This team are doing some things really well. They can play a bit and at times they look very good. Individuals can show up well and deliver top of the range performances.

But against that we fall away too easily, make too many dull errors and seem to lose shape and concentration more than we should.

[jngf]

I did think Ireland made a pig’s breakfast of converting pocession and territory they had in large patches of that first half (England’s defence was great too to be fair) but England were genuinely abject in second half imo and the tries that did come were too late in the day to influence the overall result - imo final scoreline flattered England.

[Skalyba]

Another frustrating game really. I think we came out and played the way SB had set us to up to, and by and large it worked, albeit with Ireland unfortunate not to score earlier. Both the backrow and centres worked as intended, Smith (for the 1st 20) ran the game well and got us moving across the park. We then had the momentum pulled from us in the second half - I can think of 3 decisions (Genge early on with the forward pass, Itoje's 'push', Slade running over the obstructing Henson) that seemed harsh and each time took away the little momentum that to the point we gained.

Generally we played well though (Murley aside, but that just seemed to be a loss in confidence after the first error) but again we had the inexplicable stopping of any attempt to play the ball as soon as initial momentum was stopped in each half. It seems that as soon as the opposition get their turn to play, we drop into a kick based defensive strategy that we cant shake and then sit for the majority of the game doing nothing but defending - yes there were errors for the tries but you cant defend for an hour without making any. Also what's the point of bringing that bench on if you're not going to ask them to carry!

I cant see anything but a French win next week, the last 3 games will be very telling as to whether there's been any progress but hard to see SB sticking around if there's not a step up

[p/d]

I think Ireland were nullified in the first 40. We had done our homework. However, unlike us, they have the ability to adapt whilst we rinse and repeat

[Oakboy]

Murley had a couple of brain farts but to me showed enough flashes to justify another start. Giving a player one game and binning them makes no sense to me. However if we are going to just use wings to chase kicks, pick Roebuck.

Agree re how static we were and also v narrow. Maybe due to tiredness from long spells defending.

Fair do’s.

But I would not hesitate to drop him straight out.
Roebuck for me was - much to Mel’s chagrin - always the right call

We could put Campese on one wing and Rokococo on the other and it would make sweet fa difference. Lipstick on a pig.

Yet, if IFW had been there, I think we might have won. His contributions over 80 in terms of rattling the opposition matter so much. None of our back three yesterday caused panic or opened up the defence in the middle of the park. IFW does regularly. It could have been the difference.

Defensively, he rarely lacks judgement or confidence. Being exposed does not phase him.

At international level, I now doubt that Murley or Sleightholme have the overall skill packages necessary.

[Oakboy]

I think Ireland were nullified in the first 40. We had done our homework. However, unlike us, they have the ability to adapt whilst we rinse and repeat

I wonder if Mitchell was fully fit. He seemed to not be 100% committed physically. His performance was well below his best.

[Mellsblue]

My point is don’t get in a position to be stepped. Show him the outside and haul him down. Steward isn’t quick enough to do that so gets stepped repeatedly. Even BOD agrees with me and I reckon it’s a standard cut up for the oppo prior to any match vs England. As with most players, other than RICH LANE!!!, you have to pick your poison but it’s a glaring flaw to have as a 15.

I just don’t think it was the thing to be annoyed about on the try. He did show him the outside tho!

I’m not saying it is the major mistake for the try, that’s clearly Mitchell*, but it’s a recurring problem that isn’t, and seemingly can’t be, solved and it’s a major flaw in a fullback. He clearly didn’t show him the outside enough as he got stepped on the inside. Maybe ‘force him to take the outside’ is a better way of phrasing it. We’re obvs not going to agree as I’ve had this discussion numerous times - which tells its own story.

*The Ireland staff clearly identified a weakness on the edge with the Eng halfbacks and made adjustments at halftime - I’m sure Aki on the wing lining up vs Smith isn’t a bit of luck - but I can’t ever remember thinking England have made similar adjustments…

[Mellsblue]

Fair do’s.

But I would not hesitate to drop him straight out.
Roebuck for me was - much to Mel’s chagrin - always the right call

We could put Campese on one wing and Rokococo on the other and it would make sweet fa difference. Lipstick on a pig.

Yet, if IFW had been there, I think we might have won. His contributions over 80 in terms of rattling the opposition matter so much. None of our back three yesterday caused panic or opened up the defence in the middle of the park. IFW does regularly. It could have been the difference.

Defensively, he rarely lacks judgement or confidence. Being exposed does not phase him.

At international level, I now doubt that Murley or Sleightholme have the overall skill packages necessary.

Other than Freeman who rattled them a number of times. Sleightholme looks our most threatening winger, he just needs to tighten in d which is obvs no sure thing at test level.
If you think not having IFW in the XV could’ve been the difference between winning and losing that match then, well, I don’t know what to say other than that’s completely wrong.

[Mellsblue]

Let's leave moaning about the ref to the Welsh. England lost the composure after the Irish went ahead. Regardless of the call that's on England. Gutting but so it goes. The BP was deserved.

What did people make of Willis? I'd lost the ability to pay attention to his play by that stage, sadly.

I can’t agree. The invention of that penalty was a total game changer.

We didn’t lose the game because of it, but it was total fantasy and was a momentum swing, that simply should not happen.

Is all this moaning about the Itoje push? From the back angle, it didn't look like anything. From in front it was minor but clear I thought. I imagine the touch judge called it. Otherwise it looked like you won some you lose some. E.g. Ireland will feel they could have had more holding on pens and Murley could have been done for that try saver at the end.

Main thing for me about England is that again and again they look really dangerous in attack for a 20 minute spell and then revert to kicking it up in the air. I just don't get it. I wouldn't be surprised if you hammer someone (maybe Scotland) at some point but I'm also constantly surprised by how you can go from looking good to looking really average so quickly.

This other than the fact that I can’t see a hammering. We revert to kick and chase when we’re behind so I can’t see us doing anything other than this if we get into a lead.

[Mellsblue]

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

This seems about right to me. Chatting with an Irish mate during the match and he was very impressed by England's defence in the first half.

What I'd really like to see is some sign of England taking control of things. The initial period was all England but it always felt like Ireland would get their turn. Conversely, the Irish just felt utterly in command for much of the second half.

Also this and it’s been the same for the vast majority of our games in the last 12 months.

[Mellsblue]

The frustration is understandable.

This team are doing some things really well. They can play a bit and at times they look very good. Individuals can show up well and deliver top of the range performances.

But against that we fall away too easily, make too many dull errors and seem to lose shape and concentration more than we should.

It’s just a little bit of history repeating, Shirley.

[Mellsblue]

I did think Ireland made a pig’s breakfast of converting pocession and territory they had in large patches of that first half (England’s defence was great too to be fair) but England were genuinely abject in second half imo and the tries that did come were too late in the day to influence the overall result - imo final scoreline flattered England.

We agree! The England rugby malaise has found a positive!

[Mellsblue]

I think Ireland were nullified in the first 40. We had done our homework. However, unlike us, they have the ability to adapt whilst we rinse and repeat

Exactement. Made the same point in one of my many previous replies.
We rinse and repeat rinsing and repeating.

[Mellsblue]

Do I hold the record for the most consecutive replies?

[Mellsblue]

How about now?