Ireland vs England - Sat 4.45pm

[p/d]

Nailed it with the last one

[Mellsblue]

I’ve been told god loves a trier.

[Scrumhead]

Was it though? We lost one through competition and one through LCD fucking up the throw. Every other lineout was clean ball, wasn't it?

Puja

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

Thank you Puja. You've done a nice job of articulating more or less my exact thoughts here.

Personally, I’ve found the relentless negativity overbearing to the point of not really wanting to come in here as much as I used to.

[Banquo]

The frustration is understandable.

This team are doing some things really well. They can play a bit and at times they look very good. Individuals can show up well and deliver top of the range performances.

But against that we fall away too easily, make too many dull errors and seem to lose shape and concentration more than we should.

Yus. Yesterday penalties and simple one on one missed tackles were killers… though shouldnt ignore that Ireland gave us a seeing to second half.

[Banquo]

I think Ireland were nullified in the first 40. We had done our homework. However, unlike us, they have the ability to adapt whilst we rinse and repeat

Partially- they made a lot of mistakes 1st half, and maybe that was pressure, which we couldn’t sustain.

[Banquo]

My point is don’t get in a position to be stepped. Show him the outside and haul him down. Steward isn’t quick enough to do that so gets stepped repeatedly. Even BOD agrees with me and I reckon it’s a standard cut up for the oppo prior to any match vs England. As with most players, other than RICH LANE!!!, you have to pick your poison but it’s a glaring flaw to have as a 15.

I just don’t think it was the thing to be annoyed about on the try. He did show him the outside tho!

I’m not saying it is the major mistake for the try, that’s clearly Mitchell*, but it’s a recurring problem that isn’t, and seemingly can’t be, solved and it’s a major flaw in a fullback. He clearly didn’t show him the outside enough as he got stepped on the inside. Maybe ‘force him to take the outside’ is a better way of phrasing it. We’re obvs not going to agree as I’ve had this discussion numerous times - which tells its own story.

*The Ireland staff clearly identified a weakness on the edge with the Eng halfbacks and made adjustments at halftime - I’m sure Aki on the wing lining up vs Smith isn’t a bit of luck - but I can’t ever remember thinking England have made similar adjustments…

No we aren’t going to agree on the basic point that it’s bloody hard for a 15 to defend a 1 on 1 against an intl back in plenty of space; different if there is some cover on the inside and the touchline is a factor. Steward admittedly looks a bit like Harry Mallinder when doing it.
Totally agree on second para

[Banquo]

two ball mostly bar one to the tail and several shortened or quick ones, not great attacking ball, plus only attacked their ball once...so Ireland comfortable with a lineout under pressure in the AIs. The two you point to were important as well. So yes, an issue, and as Kay said, after analysis will be under more pressure from France and their many good jumpers.
Are you contending that its not a trade off? Also think that when we tired and line speed dropped off, we took a bit of a physical bashing; maybe Willis starting would help.

Ireland are one of the best teams at competing in the air and one of the most disruptive defensive lineouts and we lost one (1) lineout to enemy action today. Plus you're flat out wrong about it being 2 ball mostly - the majority of the time we went to the middle. Frankly, I think it's fairly solid evidence that no number of jumpers is a match for cleverness and moving to where the defence isn't.

That's not to say I wouldn't pick TWillis over Earl next week anyway, but we don't need a third lock in the back row and I'm very wary of any suggestion that we want to weaken our flankers to strengthen our lineout.

I do generally remain astounded by the pessimism on here. Before the game, it was "Ireland are going to batter us," and "We don't stand any chance at all." Then, when we lose to the second best team in the world, away from home, having looked on par with them for the majority of the match and being undone by a run of exceedingly bad luck with refereeing decisions which cost us all possession and territory for about 10-15 minutes, we're still at "Sack the coaches". Yes, I'm fucked off that it's another game that we've failed to close out, but that Joe El Abd defence looked pretty good to me in its first proper runout today and we made a fuck of a lot more linebreaks and broke a fuck of a lot more tackles than we're used to against Ireland.

I'm not yet in a "Tear down everything that's being built and start again" mood after that game. Ask me again if we get pelted by the French next week.

Puja

Thank you Puja. You've done a nice job of articulating more or less my exact thoughts here.

Personally, I’ve found the relentless negativity overbearing to the point of not really wanting to come in here as much as I used to.

I saw your posts on the u20s game

[fivepointer]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

[Banquo]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

Aye, though he was better at least in running the ball back. He is best attacking close in.

[FKAS]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

How to show you've not watched Freddie this season. Wow.

His lack of pace compared to international wingers does leave him vulnerable in broken field but it's not like we saw a massive reduction in tries with Furbank there. Generally international quality wingers (and pacy 9s) tend to make the most of line breaks. Steward's best chance is to blitz up early like he does for Tigers and take man and ball wasn't an option on that play.

[FKAS]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

Aye, though he was better at least in running the ball back. He is best attacking close in.

He's best when you give him the ball. Created a lot of tries coming into the line between 13 and wing this season. Defence tightens in and he releases the winger or they try to drift on him and he makes ground through the tackle at least. We just didn't play enough phases to make that happen yesterday.

Same for the wingers, they barely touched the ball. Got to stop going aerial so soon. It's a fine tactic when you're getting the ball back but when you're starved of possession you can't keep kicking it in the opposition's half.

[p/d]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

Aye, though he was better at least in running the ball back. He is best attacking close in.

Did I hear you say at 12?

[Banquo]

Steward isnt a great 1v1 tackler. We could do with a better footballer at FB and thats really my issue with him. Its not just his lack of pace but he offers so little as an attacking threat.

Aye, though he was better at least in running the ball back. He is best attacking close in.

He's best when you give him the ball. Created a lot of tries coming into the line between 13 and wing this season. Defence tightens in and he releases the winger or they try to drift on him and he makes ground through the tackle at least. We just didn't play enough phases to make that happen yesterday.

Same for the wingers, they barely touched the ball. Got to stop going aerial so soon. It's a fine tactic when you're getting the ball back but when you're starved of possession you can't keep kicking it in the opposition's half.

I’m halfway between you and 5p on this; he’s definitely added a bit of pace and ambition, but still looks less than top class when he comes into the wide channels.

I agree we still kick too much, set that tone early. Tho I did have to take back my shout at Slade when he kicked… and Murley scored.

[Mikey Brown]

It is kind of funny how much this game has reinforced basically everyone’s preconceived notions about the team, whether they contradict eachother or not.

I should have mentioned as well how painful it was watching Harry Randall come on and just box kick it 30 times. I remember Willis getting a couple of touches but mostly he was just chasing kicks.

I don’t know if it’s a stamina thing or what, but there seems to be some sort of trigger where we just revert to this kicking game that we aren’t particularly good at executing. It’s unfair to dismiss it completely given the two late tries we scored, but I’d love to understand better why/when we make that call.

We may as well just throw in the towel and pick Sloebuck if we’re always going to default to that.

[Mikey Brown]

I do mean that as a joke. I actually really like Roebuck. That probably doesn’t come across.

[FKAS]

Aye, though he was better at least in running the ball back. He is best attacking close in.

He's best when you give him the ball. Created a lot of tries coming into the line between 13 and wing this season. Defence tightens in and he releases the winger or they try to drift on him and he makes ground through the tackle at least. We just didn't play enough phases to make that happen yesterday.

Same for the wingers, they barely touched the ball. Got to stop going aerial so soon. It's a fine tactic when you're getting the ball back but when you're starved of possession you can't keep kicking it in the opposition's half.

I’m halfway between you and 5p on this; he’s definitely added a bit of pace and ambition, but still looks less than top class when he comes into the wide channels.

I agree we still kick too much, set that tone early. Tho I did have to take back my shout at Slade when he kicked… and Murley scored.

That Slade kick for Murley was definitely a ploy we'd picked up on analysis. Marcus Smith tried it in the first minute of the game as well.

[Banquo]

He's best when you give him the ball. Created a lot of tries coming into the line between 13 and wing this season. Defence tightens in and he releases the winger or they try to drift on him and he makes ground through the tackle at least. We just didn't play enough phases to make that happen yesterday.

Same for the wingers, they barely touched the ball. Got to stop going aerial so soon. It's a fine tactic when you're getting the ball back but when you're starved of possession you can't keep kicking it in the opposition's half.

I’m halfway between you and 5p on this; he’s definitely added a bit of pace and ambition, but still looks less than top class when he comes into the wide channels.

I agree we still kick too much, set that tone early. Tho I did have to take back my shout at Slade when he kicked… and Murley scored.

That Slade kick for Murley was definitely a ploy we'd picked up on analysis. Marcus Smith tried it in the first minute of the game as well.

yep, but we always seem to overkill thereafter. Its like we can't change plan.....

[FKAS]

I’m halfway between you and 5p on this; he’s definitely added a bit of pace and ambition, but still looks less than top class when he comes into the wide channels.

I agree we still kick too much, set that tone early. Tho I did have to take back my shout at Slade when he kicked… and Murley scored.

That Slade kick for Murley was definitely a ploy we'd picked up on analysis. Marcus Smith tried it in the first minute of the game as well.

yep, but we always seem to overkill thereafter. Its like we can't change plan.....

Yeah it was depressing watch us revert to type even though we had no ball and were getting no ball back from the kicking tactics. Two phases no momentum and kick, is fine if the opposition are pinned back and end up giving you the ball back. Ireland exited confidently and then won the ball back and played. So frustrating.

[Banquo]

It is kind of funny how much this game has reinforced basically everyone’s preconceived notions about the team, whether they contradict eachother or not.

I should have mentioned as well how painful it was watching Harry Randall come on and just box kick it 30 times. I remember Willis getting a couple of touches but mostly he was just chasing kicks.

I don’t know if it’s a stamina thing or what, but there seems to be some sort of trigger where we just revert to this kicking game that we aren’t particularly good at executing. It’s unfair to dismiss it completely given the two late tries we scored, but I’d love to understand better why/when we make that call.

We may as well just throw in the towel and pick Sloebuck if we’re always going to default to that.

Very true- I was watching for the lineouts to be an issue, and they were early on, then we adapted. I was watching for us to get outmuscled, which we eventually were, but not until we'd really fckd Ireland up for a longish period.
There were positives, as per the AI's; its just we seem unable to string them together into an 80 minute effort- obviously the other side has ideas too! But it seems that we struggle to materially change when we need to, plus maybe we need to vary our play before they adapt to what has surprised them.

[p/d]

It is kind of funny how much this game has reinforced basically everyone’s preconceived notions about the team, whether they contradict eachother or not.

I should have mentioned as well how painful it was watching Harry Randall come on and just box kick it 30 times. I remember Willis getting a couple of touches but mostly he was just chasing kicks.

I don’t know if it’s a stamina thing or what, but there seems to be some sort of trigger where we just revert to this kicking game that we aren’t particularly good at executing. It’s unfair to dismiss it completely given the two late tries we scored, but I’d love to understand better why/when we make that call.

We may as well just throw in the towel and pick Sloebuck if we’re always going to default to that.

Yep. (Not the Roebuck slight, obviously)

[Mellsblue]

I do mean that as a joke. I actually really like Roebuck. That probably doesn’t come across.

I rate him too but as with locks, back row and midfield you need a balanced back three.

I’m rehashing an old argument but my point about a balanced back three seems to have boiled down to I think Roebuck is crap. Hence the clarification to follow yours.

[Stom]

It is kind of funny how much this game has reinforced basically everyone’s preconceived notions about the team, whether they contradict eachother or not.

I should have mentioned as well how painful it was watching Harry Randall come on and just box kick it 30 times. I remember Willis getting a couple of touches but mostly he was just chasing kicks.

I don’t know if it’s a stamina thing or what, but there seems to be some sort of trigger where we just revert to this kicking game that we aren’t particularly good at executing. It’s unfair to dismiss it completely given the two late tries we scored, but I’d love to understand better why/when we make that call.

We may as well just throw in the towel and pick Sloebuck if we’re always going to default to that.

I was pleasantly surprised at Laurence, I thought he had a good game. Slade I also thought went fine until that try that shouldn't have been where he missed the tackle and then nonchalantly jogged back.

The problem is...we can look at the details of the game and see where we've changed, where we've improved, etc., but the overall way we play, the overall way we lose concentration, the overall way we do not give players confidence, and the list goes on...it's just frustrating watching it happen game after game.

I just get the impression that the England squad is not a nice place to be.

[Mellsblue]

It is kind of funny how much this game has reinforced basically everyone’s preconceived notions about the team, whether they contradict eachother or not.

I should have mentioned as well how painful it was watching Harry Randall come on and just box kick it 30 times. I remember Willis getting a couple of touches but mostly he was just chasing kicks.

I don’t know if it’s a stamina thing or what, but there seems to be some sort of trigger where we just revert to this kicking game that we aren’t particularly good at executing. It’s unfair to dismiss it completely given the two late tries we scored, but I’d love to understand better why/when we make that call.

We may as well just throw in the towel and pick Sloebuck if we’re always going to default to that.

I just get the impression that the England squad is not a nice place to be.

There are rumours this is true. I also wonder whether coming from a club where the coach is better than the England equivalent, eg Cheika > Borthwick and Evans & Vesty > Wiggster, kills buy-in and belief.

[Mellsblue]

Ratings in the S Times by Stephen Jones:

England
FREDDIE STEWARD 6/10
Had his moments, his strength is an asset but England are still dithering about his future.

TOMMY FREEMAN 7/10
Good to see him with ball in hand for his try, although he was mostly out of the action.

Star man
OLLIE LAWRENCE 9/10
Arguably the player of the match, the one Englishman who went on battling when his team were second-best. Impressive.

HENRY SLADE 8/10
One of his best. Creative and also determined, his partnership with Lawrence was excellent.

CADAN MURLEY 5/10
Made fearful blunders on own line which cost England points and momentum and morale.

MARCUS SMITH 4/10
So little impact. Hidden in defence but Ireland still scored through him. Time for a change.

ALEX MITCHELL 5/10
No one would have swapped with him in the second half. Lost composure under pressure.

ELLIS GENGE 7/10
He was excellent when England were excellent, highly competitive and awkward.

LUKE COWAN-DICKIE 7/10
Well up for the battle, full of commitment and can consider himself a worthy change.

WILL STUART 6/10
England really must rush on the next rank of props, Stuart gave it everything.

MARO ITOJE 8/10
So good that the heart bled for him, was penalised ludicrously for nothing at key stage.

GEORGE MARTIN 7/10
Is a certain type of player and therefore calls upon England to make changes elsewhere.

TOM CURRY 7/10
Was still competing when Ireland were well on top. Must stay in the team.

BEN CURRY 5/10
The two Currys did not work as a selection; England need a bigger blind-side.

BEN EARL 6/10
Made one brilliant run but in the end England were a little lightweight up front.

Total 97/150

[Mikey Brown]

Well, picking apart Stephen Jones ratings seems foolish but here we are.

The assessment of the Currys as a pair, independent of having Earl at 8, seems ridiculous, as it was clearly always going to be.

That’s part of what is so frustrating about that selection. I’d have been happy to see the Bens with a big 6 or the Currys with a big 8, but to claim they can’t work as a pair (has he been watching Sale) based entirely on that game is dumb.

Slade and Lawrence had their best games as individuals for quite a while. Smith much less so. I don’t really know what that means overall for the midfield. I’d be happy to give Fin Smith a go if we had a convincing strategy for why he will be more effective, but I don’t know if we do.