England v France Saturday Feb 8th 16h45

[Banquo]

Oakboy you seem quite attached to this sentiment of England’s being absolutely fucking terrible at basically everything and having no good coaches OR players.

I think results are speaking for themselves. I think the team is underperforming owing to poor coaching. It is less than the sum of its parts. Selection-wise, I think we are fielding teams within 3 or 4 of the best-possible. I am not alone in suggesting that we have few if any world class players. We do have some very good ones and are not getting the best out of them.

I do agree in essence. The whole setup feels a bit off, but the constant derision of every single player and every element of the game just feels a bit much. In a disjointed setup I think there are plenty of world class players that wouldn't look all that. I think most on here broadly agree on a few selection changes/strategies we'd like to see, and with a sharper coaching team we could easily find ourselves saying some of those guys are up there with the best.

It can't all be that bad, that's all I'm saying. Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much, but it reads sometimes like supporting England is causing you some serious discomfort.

Maybe they don't all have a ton more caps than us, but all of SA, Ire, Fra have been through an intense period of rebuilding to get where they are and have a very clear identity in how they want to play and how that aligns with their player base. I'm not arguing Borthwick couldn't have done better though.

Its very chicken and egg, its true. But either way, getting the best out of what we have got is what the coaches are paid for; the argument then becomes, are they doing that? The frustration I think comes from....sometimes it looks like they do, but not for long enough against the very best teams since the last 6N; falling just short so consistently must mean something, I think we are all wrestling with what?

[FKAS]

Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....

I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.

We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.

It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.

Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.

Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.

How many were from passes by a fellow England player inside the opponents half?

Given the kicking games ongoing there's always likely to be plenty of catch and get tackled moments.

Freeman steaming off the inside shoulder of Marcus Smith or Steward hitting a short pop off one of the centres was more what I was thinking in terms of using them to try and generate some go forward rather than just letting the forwards rumble.

[jngf]

Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....

I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.

We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.

It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.

Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.

Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.

Been like that for England since the Carling era

[Oakboy]

Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....

I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.

We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.

It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.

Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.

Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.

To some extent, is that because we have spent so much time either on the defensive or kicking the ball away? Old adages like 'they can't score without the ball' could maybe do with repeating. It's one reason why we need more brawn in our backrow - keeing the ball with multi-phase stuff and wearing out the opposition rather than knackering oyr players chasing it all over the pitch.

[Puja]

Murley is apparently struggling with a foot injury and a doubt for Saturday anyway.

Puja

[Puja]

We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.

It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.

Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.

Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.

To some extent, is that because we have spent so much time either on the defensive or kicking the ball away? Old adages like 'they can't score without the ball' could maybe do with repeating. It's one reason why we need more brawn in our backrow - keeing the ball with multi-phase stuff and wearing out the opposition rather than knackering oyr players chasing it all over the pitch.

I mean, "they can't score without the ball" is a truism in football, but it's less useful in rugby union where keeping the ball in your own half when the opposition defence is set and prepared can quite easily lead to a kickable penalty.

Puja

[francoisfou]

Murley is apparently struggling with a foot injury and a doubt for Saturday anyway.

Puja

Word has it that he shot himself

[Banquo]

Steward had 10 touches, Freeman 8, Lawrence 7, Slade 8 and Murley 13.

Bet if you look at the last 2 years worth of game you'll find similar numbers for our backs. We simply dont get the ball in their hands anywhere near enough.

To some extent, is that because we have spent so much time either on the defensive or kicking the ball away? Old adages like 'they can't score without the ball' could maybe do with repeating. It's one reason why we need more brawn in our backrow - keeing the ball with multi-phase stuff and wearing out the opposition rather than knackering oyr players chasing it all over the pitch.

I mean, "they can't score without the ball" is a truism in football, but it's less useful in rugby union where keeping the ball in your own half when the opposition defence is set and prepared can quite easily lead to a kickable penalty.

Puja

That's why France in particular don't; they kick the crap out of it, notwithstanding perception, ditto SA. Both have exceptional kick chase. Detail and all that.

[Mellsblue]

Murley is apparently struggling with a foot injury and a doubt for Saturday anyway.

Puja

Word has it that he shot himself

10/10

[francoisfou]

There are a couple of hints on the possible composition of the French side from their Marcoussis training ground.
Wing forward Paul Boudehent isn't training and in his absence, Alexandre Roumat (2nd row against Wales), was wearing the 6 bib with Joshua Brennan wearing 4.
Unsurprisingly. Matthieu Jalibert was wearing 10.

[Mikey Brown]

I saw Penaud in the squad or is he still rehabbing?

[francoisfou]

I saw Penaud in the squad or is he still rehabbing?

Still rehabbing, from what I've read.

[Spiffy]

Saw some media musings that England might think of starting M.Smith at FB and moving Steward to the wing to help control the expected aerial bombardment.
France would surely love that as they have any number of fliers out wide who would skin big Freddie all day long.

[Puja]

Saw some media musings that England might think of starting M.Smith at FB and moving Steward to the wing to help control the expected aerial bombardment.
France would surely love that as they have any number of fliers out wide who would skin big Freddie all day long.

While I'm not a fan of Steward on the wing, it's more because we've got better attacking options there than because I'd be worried about his defence there. He's pretty good when given only one direction to work with - the issue has always been when he's chasing across and the defender can go both ways.

Puja

[Stom]

Its pretty fair. Good players aplenty but standout ones....

I do think raising our game shouldnt be beyond us. The trick is going to be adding some extra quality (which i think we have) along with taking the performance levels of most of our players from mostly good to mostly very good.

We've got to find a way to get the ball in the hands of our outside backs more. We looked dangerous at time on Saturday but when you've got Freeman and Steward barely touching the ball for a team that needs momentum you've got to ask what are we hoping the forwards will magic up? Wigglesworth is being linked with a move away from the setup and that would be a positive at this point because he's failed to push the attack on. Having a winger as good and as powerful as Freeman hugging the wing when we rarely play with width is pointless.

It's much easier for good players to like great when they're playing with momentum.

I can agree with that.

And I feel like one of the main problems many have with the England team is that this has been a common thread for too long, and we've done nothing to correct it. And results are getting worse and worse.

And then we see players who perform well for their clubs being utterly useless for England. Mainly scrum halfs whose #1 job for England seems to be kicking the bloody thing rather than playing what's in front of them.

And our forwards don't make ground with the ball, so one out runners go nowhere.

And we have zero intention to have wingers coming off their wing and popping up on the shoulders of the forwards. Or, for that matter, our FB when we've got a big lump in Steward there, it would seem not just a good idea but a sensible idea to have him running lines off the forwards. But we run the same 2 things: give it to a forward to trundle, or give it to a front row forward who pivots and we run an obvious wrap around. Nothing else. Runners don't get involved unless there's a bloody wrap around. And, yes, I get it, it's a very effective play. But not if it's your only play!

[Which Tyler]

It looks like France will be without N'tamack, Fickou, Danty, Ollivon, and Flament
As far as I can see, we'll just be without Furbank, IFW, and Competence

[Banquo]

It looks like France will be without N'tamack, Fickou, Danty, Ollivon, and Flament
As far as I can see, we'll just be without Furbank, IFW, and Competence

[Spiffy]

It looks like France will be without N'tamack, Fickou, Danty, Ollivon, and Flament
As far as I can see, we'll just be without Furbank, IFW, and Competence

That's OK - his brother, I.N. Competence, will be playing.

[jngf]

On paper France should destroy England when they meet but there’s a clutching at straws aspect that Twickers can still be a bit of a Bogey ground for them. If we do lose, Borthwick will find some way to spin it along the lines of “luke they are a team with wooorld classe playeeerrrzzz” , I suspect the test against Scotland will be decisive, one way or other for current coaching regime.

[Mellsblue]

Murley out, due to injury and Lozowski in. I presume this means Sleightholme is fit (or Beard is covering wing).





{Mod} ETA - you have to deadname Twitter in the link and replace x. co m with twitter. co m , otherwise it won't show up on here. The tech behind RugbyRebels apparently joining me in refusing to ever call it "x" {/Mod}

[Puja]

Murley officially out of the France game and replaced in the squad by Lozowski, whom I'm sure will have a lovely time holding tackle bags.

Probably a stroke of luck - would've been awfully harsh and demoralising if he had been dropped and potentially ruined a very promising player, but I also don't want to be selecting him for France just on the basis of not being cruel. This way, he gets a chance to reset and come back later, hopefully having worked on his positioning under swirling garryowens.

Choice now between Sleightholme and Roebuck (please not Steward on the wing). I'm torn - Roebuck is great in the air and a weapon for retrieving opposition kicks, as well as being a top finisher and a steppy bastard, however Sleightholme is faster and stronger in the contact and gives off more IFW vibes in his general play, but is weaker in defence.

If we want to contest every kick off like we did at the weekend, kind of need Steward (don't think I've ever seen us win that many kicks offs, Marcus and Freddie were dialled in).

This is a key point, which I meant to reply to earlier but didn't. For all my castigating of Steward's counterattacking and long-standing belief in MSmith4FullBack, he was an absolute weapon from kick-offs. Can Freeman do the same if we drop Steward? If not, is it (gulp) even worthwhile having Steward on the wing if it means we can use him that way - we're willing to propose compromising our back row to bolster the lineout; is the same not potentially true about another setpiece?

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Anyone know if Murley is out and Lozowski is in etc etc?

[Mikey Brown]

Check the Bristol v Sarries thread. Maybe someone in there knows.

[Mellsblue]

Check the Bristol v Sarries thread. Maybe someone in there knows.

Nothing in there other than some idiot banging on ad nauseam about how good some chap called RICH LANE!!! is.

[jngf]

Murley officially out of the France game and replaced in the squad by Lozowski, whom I'm sure will have a lovely time holding tackle bags.

Probably a stroke of luck - would've been awfully harsh and demoralising if he had been dropped and potentially ruined a very promising player, but I also don't want to be selecting him for France just on the basis of not being cruel. This way, he gets a chance to reset and come back later, hopefully having worked on his positioning under swirling garryowens.

Choice now between Sleightholme and Roebuck (please not Steward on the wing). I'm torn - Roebuck is great in the air and a weapon for retrieving opposition kicks, as well as being a top finisher and a steppy bastard, however Sleightholme is faster and stronger in the contact and gives off more IFW vibes in his general play, but is weaker in defence.

If we want to contest every kick off like we did at the weekend, kind of need Steward (don't think I've ever seen us win that many kicks offs, Marcus and Freddie were dialled in).

This is a key point, which I meant to reply to earlier but didn't. For all my castigating of Steward's counterattacking and long-standing belief in MSmith4FullBack, he was an absolute weapon from kick-offs. Can Freeman do the same if we drop Steward? If not, is it (gulp) even worthwhile having Steward on the wing if it means we can use him that way - we're willing to propose compromising our back row to bolster the lineout; is the same not potentially true about another setpiece?

Puja

Puja, is replacing Earl with a genuine no.8 actually compromising it? I’d say its been compromised well already