Lawes on Borthwick

[Which Tyler]

Basically says he's a good coach with no personal skills.

Sounds like the precise opposite of Geordan

The quote from Murphy about Borthwick turning down an invitation to coffee from fellow-players, then turning up at the same venue to sit and sup on his own, is concerning. To me, it indicates more than a lack of team spirit. It suggests egotism and arrogance. Worst, from his current role POV, it suggests no recognition of the need for consistently good communication skills.

Also, and I'm not defending Borthwick at all (I've been calling for his head, after all); but the coffee story... is it really that bad? He's not there to be their friend - something that IMO a lot of coaches struggle with - especially ex-players.
Of course, turning up to the same place at the same time is just some passive-aggressive bullshit (presumably to make the point of "I'm your boss, not your friend"), but I'm not sure it suggests egotism and arrogance or a lack of recognition for good comm.s (especially when he outright admits that being personable isn't really his skill-set, and seems to go out of the way to try to find assistants with that precise strength)

[Captainhaircut]

The quote from Murphy about Borthwick turning down an invitation to coffee from fellow-players, then turning up at the same venue to sit and sup on his own, is concerning. To me, it indicates more than a lack of team spirit. It suggests egotism and arrogance. Worst, from his current role POV, it suggests no recognition of the need for consistently good communication skills.

The article may be tosh but the description of Borthwick as 'not a people person' rings true. What is really odd is that it seems fair to suggest that none of this should be new to the RFU. That they thought it was not a sufficient negative to look elsewhere is a bit strange perhaps.

Considering the shit show that Borthwick took over from Murphy and where Borthwick took it to before he left, this is not really an opinion I care one jot about. Murphy was also DOR for a bit and probably got the boot in some part due to Borthwick so may have an axe to grind.

Not to say it may not be right but I’ll wait to hear it from someone other than an Irishman who was a dreadful head coach.

[FKAS]

The quote from Murphy about Borthwick turning down an invitation to coffee from fellow-players, then turning up at the same venue to sit and sup on his own, is concerning. To me, it indicates more than a lack of team spirit. It suggests egotism and arrogance. Worst, from his current role POV, it suggests no recognition of the need for consistently good communication skills.

The article may be tosh but the description of Borthwick as 'not a people person' rings true. What is really odd is that it seems fair to suggest that none of this should be new to the RFU. That they thought it was not a sufficient negative to look elsewhere is a bit strange perhaps.

Considering the shit show that Borthwick took over from Murphy and where Borthwick took it to before he left, this is not really an opinion I care one jot about. Murphy was also DOR for a bit and probably got the boot in some part due to Borthwick so may have an axe to grind.

Not to say it may not be right but I’ll wait to hear it from someone other than an Irishman who was a dreadful head coach.

He was a dreadful DOR as well.

To be fair to Murphy he kept getting promoted and accepted out of a sense of duty as opposed to actually thinking he deserved it. He's been on the record as saying he took the temp HC job and then asked "so what's the plan, who's coming in" only to be told the plan is you. Which wasn't strictly true because the club were in talks with Borthwick but knew it would take a while before he could join the club.

Murphy in turn inherited a shit show from possibly the worst hire Tigers have ever made Matt O'Connor a man who didn't believe in the need for pre season fitness or academy sides.

Murphy was a decent skills coach after that not so much. A man who loves the craic so not a surprise him and Borthwick didn't get on.

[Mellsblue]

Second the belief that the coffee story is a non story. It sounds a lot like Borthers is on the spectrum.

[p/d]

Second the belief that the coffee story is a non story.

Aye. Just because you slide off to find a settle in the lounge whilst your teammates head to the public bar doesn’t make you less of a ‘team player’.

[Oakboy]

It's not about whether Murphy is right or wrong. It's more the lack of good news stories about Borthwick in the light of results and in the aftermath of the unexplained departures of assistant coaches. We only get stories via the press. Momentum is anti-Borthwick so stories are dug up to add to that. I'd just like to hear stories putting points in his favour, assuming there are any.

At this point, most of us still want him to succeed simply because we want England to win and we don't want yet another HC appointment cock-up in the RFU's long list of them.

[Which Tyler]

Aye. Just because you slide off to find a settle in the lounge whilst your teammates head to the public bar doesn’t make you less of a ‘team player’.

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

[p/d]

Well he is reported to favour a Loake over a Nike. So that, i feel, an important factor when judging character.

That is a shoe reference FKAS

[Mellsblue]

Aye. Just because you slide off to find a settle in the lounge whilst your teammates head to the public bar doesn’t make you less of a ‘team player’.

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

The coffee non story was from his playing days.

‘The former Ireland full-back also used an example from Borthwick’s playing days, suggesting that his England team-mates would invite him for a coffee only for Borthwick to decline, before being spotted on his own in the same coffee shop – with Murphy saying he wished to keep people at a distance.

[FKAS]

It's not about whether Murphy is right or wrong. It's more the lack of good news stories about Borthwick in the light of results and in the aftermath of the unexplained departures of assistant coaches. We only get stories via the press. Momentum is anti-Borthwick so stories are dug up to add to that. I'd just like to hear stories putting points in his favour, assuming there are any.

At this point, most of us still want him to succeed simply because we want England to win and we don't want yet another HC appointment cock-up in the RFU's long list of them.

It's not hard to find recent ex players talk positively about Borthwick. Marler, Youngs and Cole all regularly talk about him positively. Youngs happy to critique the England performances as well.

[p/d]

Aye. Just because you slide off to find a settle in the lounge whilst your teammates head to the public bar doesn’t make you less of a ‘team player’.

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

My comment was really a dig at Mell’s well reported preference to take wine alone.

[Mellsblue]

Aye. Just because you slide off to find a settle in the lounge whilst your teammates head to the public bar doesn’t make you less of a ‘team player’.

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

My comment was really a dig at Mell’s well reported preference to take wine alone.

Absolutely. A good red should be savoured in solitude, preferably in front of a roaring fire with a faithful dog at your feet. One good friend is permissible.

[p/d]

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

My comment was really a dig at Mell’s well reported preference to take wine alone.

Absolutely. A good red should be savoured in solitude, preferably in front of a roaring fire with a faithful dog at your feet. One good friend is permissible.

Pure bliss!

[FKAS]

Well he is reported to favour a Loake over a Nike. So that, i feel, an important factor when judging character.

That is a shoe reference FKAS

Thanks. I had to Google Loake even with the hint.

[Oakboy]

He's not their team-mate - he's their boss.

Or, more specifically, their boss' boss

You could make a good argument that part of his job is to give them space to talk freely without him - whether they're shooting the breeze, or bitching about the boss.

My comment was really a dig at Mell’s well reported preference to take wine alone.

Absolutely. A good red should be savoured in solitude, preferably in front of a roaring fire with a faithful dog at your feet. One good friend is permissible.

Love it.

I would have the wine bottle firmly inserted painfully should she not get to share the contents.

[p/d]

My comment was really a dig at Mell’s well reported preference to take wine alone.

Absolutely. A good red should be savoured in solitude, preferably in front of a roaring fire with a faithful dog at your feet. One good friend is permissible.

Love it.

I would have the wine bottle firmly inserted painfully should she not get to share the contents.

This has taken a turn

[Banquo]

Second the belief that the coffee story is a non story. It sounds a lot like Borthers is on the spectrum.

This.

[Which Tyler]

The coffee non story was from his playing days.

‘The former Ireland full-back also used an example from Borthwick’s playing days, suggesting that his England team-mates would invite him for a coffee only for Borthwick to decline, before being spotted on his own in the same coffee shop – with Murphy saying he wished to keep people at a distance.

Fair enough, I had no way of knowing that.
In that case, he just sounds like an introvert - definitely NOT something I'd think about Geordan

[twitchy]

I've got lots of criticisms of borthwick but that coffee story sounds silly. If you are winning, none of that matters. The implosion of his hand picked coaching team does sound a load of alarm bells though.

[Banquo]

The coffee non story was from his playing days.

‘The former Ireland full-back also used an example from Borthwick’s playing days, suggesting that his England team-mates would invite him for a coffee only for Borthwick to decline, before being spotted on his own in the same coffee shop – with Murphy saying he wished to keep people at a distance.

Fair enough, I had no way of knowing that.
In that case, he just sounds like an introvert - definitely NOT something I'd think about Geordan

yep, I was thinking shy and perhaps a bit on the spectrum as Mells says.

[Banquo]

If you are winning, none of that matters.

just ask Eddie...same applied.