Scotland v Ireland Sunday 3pm

[Mikey Brown]

I know Dobie can cover wing, but if this is the scenario then what is the point. He’s now got to defend opposite Lowe for an hour.

[paddy no 11]

2 of our most important players getting themselves taken off after colliding with each other pretty sums up that first 20

Sure does.

Graham looks fucked. Poor guy has no luck.

He gave a thumbs up off the stretcher

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. That’s something.

This game is horrible though. I just want it to be over. Feels like we’re 30 points down.

[paddy no 11]

Hup!

[Donny osmond]

Yep. That’s something.

This game is horrible though. I just want it to be over. Feels like we’re 30 points down.

We've been so poor that we should be

[switchskier]

Twickenham 2019?

Feel for Darcy. I wanted him on the lions tour, think he'd thrive

[Donny osmond]

Why did they have to get O'Gara as a pundit?

[Donny osmond]

Early for replacements?

[sharvey44]

This is painful to watch. Too slow to everything along with a ref that is having a shocker.

[paddy no 11]

Henshaw should definitely have had a yellow for the knock on

[Donny osmond]

Can't blame the ref, we've been schooled today, 2nd best in every single position

[Mikey Brown]

Can't blame the ref, we've been schooled today, 2nd best in every single position

Criticising the ref is my small silver lining to also thinking we were bested all across the field.

[sharvey44]

Can't blame the ref, we've been schooled today, 2nd best in every single position

We were second best at most facets today and lost two key players makers whom would have made a difference. However the ref was poor and lost control of the game on a number of occasions. Ireland are still very good and still very “streetsmart” when it counts.

[BaldiePete]

Amongst the many frustrations today, the worst was that Ireland didn’t have to play particularly well to comprehensively beat us.

[paddy no 11]

Can't blame the ref, we've been schooled today, 2nd best in every single position

We were second best at most facets today and lost two key players makers whom would have made a difference. However the ref was poor and lost control of the game on a number of occasions. Ireland are still very good and still very “streetsmart” when it counts.

Absolutely. the "push" from fagerson and the deliberate knock on from henshaw were 2 big moments for Scotland to apply pressure in Irish 22 but tef got both wrong

[switchskier]

Feeling so frustrated with that. Not the loss: Ireland just were and are better than us and have been for a long time. They have been athletes, think that fraction faster and are more comfortable in their system and way of playing.

It's that I've seen a version of that game every year for the entirety of Townsend's reign. He's a good coach but he just keeps trying the same thing and game plan against Ireland every damned time, despite it never ever looking like working. They completely have our number.

I don't know what the answer is but I just want us to try something a bit different against them.

We also need to look at the second row. Fresher legs and more dynamism needed.

[BaldiePete]

We also need to look at the second row. Fresher legs and more dynamism needed.

I’m just back from the match, my impression from the back row of West 2 was that Gray did very little and was completely knackered by the time he went off. Gilchrist was more evident in play and his lineout work seemed good but we need to move on. Gray should be released back to his club and I’d expect Gilchrist will keep his place until the end of the 6N but after that can we PLEASE move on.

[septic 9]

We also need to look at the second row. Fresher legs and more dynamism needed.

lots of issues in the game but from the off that was always going to be the biggest. But with our best 2 locks injured the other options were a maybe underpowered/too short 6/4, another (Skinner) who hasn't exactly set the heather on fire, and a pair of callow unproved 25 year olds. We look like plenty of genuine options at Glasgow, Edin need to move on from some or all of Gilco, Skinner, Sykes and Young, get McVie into match da squads asap

[Mikey Brown]

Feeling so frustrated with that. Not the loss: Ireland just were and are better than us and have been for a long time. They have been athletes, think that fraction faster and are more comfortable in their system and way of playing.

It's that I've seen a version of that game every year for the entirety of Townsend's reign. He's a good coach but he just keeps trying the same thing and game plan against Ireland every damned time, despite it never ever looking like working. They completely have our number.

I don't know what the answer is but I just want us to try something a bit different against them.

We also need to look at the second row. Fresher legs and more dynamism needed.

I struggle to even distinguish gameplan from execution when it comes to this game.

Every time we do a number of things well, but make crucial errors across multiple key areas of the game. It’s not like we walk away with just 2 or 3 work-ons. Most of our game just looked wrong.

Is there a different gameplan that would have seen us reacting quicker, being more aggressive, passing more accurately? We made poor decisions and executed poorly, over and over, in a number of different ways.

Not trying to force every single bit of attacking ball out to the wing would have been a start. Ireland would leave a huge gap, knowing by the time we’ve lobbed it above/behind 3 or 4 guys they’d have it covered. Strategy of execution? Dunno. They both looked bad on a day like today.

Ireland are fantastic, and the ref really stole some of our momentum away with a few poor calls, but that doesn’t make up for the complete collapse.

The injuries, both pre-tournament and in the opening quarter, were obviously massive, but I genuinely thought this team were past that kind of performance today. Gutted.

Could not wait for that one to be over. It’s a shame because I know there were some good individual showings amongst it, but this fixture makes me question tuning in at all.

[Donny osmond]

Absolutely agree Mikey, it's hard to call out the gameplan when execution is so poor. Maybe the game plan isn't right, but any game plan would've been wrong when the players fuck it up so completely

[BaldiePete]

Darcy was taken to hospital but has been released.

[Cameo]

Useless.

So many issues. The most fundamental one is at 2, 4 and 5. Any one of them could be part of a decent front 5, three of them is two too many. Every attacking phase was a battle to keep hold of the ball. Every defensive phase was a battle to cling on. It's not just the lack of carrying power, it's the lack of impact all round (be it jackaling threat or big tackles or efficient clear outs or just pace and agility round the park). There is also a handling problem throughout the pack. It all just means the backs have to be perfect and they were anything but.

Agree with the comments above about errors vs game plan. We just drop too many balls. It is brutal to watch sometimes and it comes when we feel the heat. I love Matt Fagerson but there's a pattern of him randomly dropping it or losing it in contact. I don't know how we solve it. Drops led to the first Ireland try, the yellow, various bits of lost momentum, and probably more. We do have some guts in defence, but you can't cling on against Ireland for a whole match. The charge downs are similar.

-That's not to say we shouldn't try a different game plan, though maybe we were with the early kicking and the going for posts.

- Would (say) Hiddlestone, Cummings, Williamson, and Tuipolotu have made a difference. I think it is hard to think they wouldn't. Tuipolotu alone for his decision making under pressure would have helped early.

- Hope Graham is okay.

On the ref, just because I am interested in this kind of thing, not because his performance was worse than ours:

- Actually think the most important call in terms of the match was when he weirdly came back for the knock on advantage when Ireland had had clean ball and tried a cross field kick which VDM took. It felt like we were on the back foot from then onwards.

- In two minds about the Fagerson one. It's a push and the player wasn't really blocking. If they gave those all the time, I could live with it. Similar with the holding of Itoje before the disallowed Ireland try last week-the refs see it all the time and most of the time have no problem with it. I also feel for Fagerson a bit, there's been a bit of talk about him bymeing our answer to O'Mahoney (ironically starting from him getting penalised for taking him high). If we got the penalty, the psuh would have just been seen as a streetwise way of drawing attention to blocking.

- I was okay with the Henshaw call. It looked close enough to being in the tackle for me.Lowe's earlier was a deliberate knockon, but didn't matter.

- Worst call was fairly late on when Van De Flier carried, Darge tried to hold him up, ref said 'tackle complete, let go', Darge let go, Van De Flier started running again and ref said 'play on, he broke away'. We got a penalty at the next ruck so no impact but a bizarre piece of reffing.

[Donny osmond]

Tbh I'm not angry, or even that disappointed. We can flatter ourselves about being among the best of the rest, but the reality is that there's a gulf between us and the top teams that isn't really closing. For all the same reasons that we've talked about for decades. Rugby is won and lost in the top two inches, Carwyn James said that back in the 60s and we've been both ignoring him and proving him right pretty much ever since.

[Mikey Brown]

Anyone reflected on this with anything other than negativity? I hadn't realised there was a new, undiscovered kind of crushing defeat by Ireland but that one was rough. Some players returning from injury could definitely bolster things, but the areas that lack depth/impact just feel insurmountable.

Any hope among you? I have this weird feeling Wales are going to get a bit of a bounce and we will be the target after they face Ireland. Not optimistic in the slightest about the England game either, but losing to Wales at this point would certainly raise some more serious questions around how far Townsend can keep going.

[Donny osmond]

I know a few people who think we're so much better than England and are guaranteed to hump them which seems to be... bizarrely optimistic to me.

I also am worried about Wales, against whom we have a habit of underestimating them, or overestimating ourselves, and I think we might be on the wrong end of a bounce there.

On Toonie, I rate him as a coach and as someone who constantly seems to look to learn from mistakes. Even so, I think he might have taken this group as far as he can. But I also am far from convinced anyone else could really take them further. The gap between us and the top teams is systemic and I don't think will be addressed unless and until we have systems in place to produce genuine talent consistently.