America

[Mellsblue]

Well, that’s the most depressing thing to happen since the invasion began. I’m surprised Zelenskyy didn’t land a couple of punches. I wouldn’t have blamed him. What a pair of c**ts.

[paddy no 11]

What a pitiful state of affairs

[Which Tyler]

RIP NATO, or at least, a US-led version of it.

We need to up our spending more than already committed to, and spend as little of it as possible on US supplies/expertise. I'm not convinced we can even rely on them to service the kit we already have.
Forge closer ties with the EU, Canada, Australia etc.
Between the rest of NATO, we also need to train up and agree on leadership roles and coordination.

Europe can't afford to let Ukraine fall, and we have to cut the US out of any of our thinking, and reduce reliance as much as achievable.

There's a job vacancy now for "leader of the free world" the EU surely has to take that on, or we're all f****d

[paddy no 11]

An alternative I'm hearing is that Ukraine is willing to go it alone for a year so zelensky isn't as hard pressed as it seems. He rejected first minerals deal which has pissed off the bullys hence the performance today. I'm hoping this slightly less bleak picture is accurate

[Sandydragon]

Perhaps the most incredible thing I have witnessed. I don’t know what Zelensky has to do to win over Trump. There’s a precious enmity and standing up to the orange bully has tipped him over the edge.

Heaven help Ukraine. The EU has to step up.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Well, that went well.
And in front of all those cameras too - great way of having such a high powered, important meeting.

Jesus Christ. That's horrific.

Trump and Vance are doing their best to unite the whole world behind Ukraine. When Kim Jong Un sees that he'll switch sides. We are all Ukrainians now.

We (all of Europe) need to arm this guy, fill the gaps the US will no doubt leave. Can we increase defence spending to 5% just to shut those two cunts up?? USA is leader of the Axis of Fascism, everyone else needs to buckle up, we are the resistance.

(Sorry about this randomness, my sanity may take a while to return)

[Banquo]

Perhaps the most incredible thing I have witnessed. I don’t know what Zelensky has to do to win over Trump. There’s a precious enmity and standing up to the orange bully has tipped him over the edge.

Heaven help Ukraine. The EU has to step up.

I cant see how the EU can get close in a meanngful time without going literally all in on Ukraine, and Trump knows it.

Trump is a nut job and zelensky didnt play his game; he thought it was a negotiation, whereas Trump had announced and expected a deal all in us favour. Dangerous times.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Perhaps the most incredible thing I have witnessed. I don’t know what Zelensky has to do to win over Trump. There’s a precious enmity and standing up to the orange bully has tipped him over the edge.

Heaven help Ukraine. The EU has to step up.

He needs a letter from the King of Ukraine.

[Which Tyler]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

[Sandydragon]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

It was a total ambush. Vance’s interjection was on cue and that question from the reporter about a suit felt staged too.

Was Trump playing for his base, or Putin? It’s clear that he really doesn’t like Zelensky and fair play to Zelensky for keeping his composure and not walking out.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

It was a total ambush. Vance’s interjection was on cue and that question from the reporter about a suit felt staged too.

Was Trump playing for his base, or Putin? It’s clear that he really doesn’t like Zelensky and fair play to Zelensky for keeping his composure and not walking out.

Yeah, they definitely wanted to rough him up. Either make him crawl and abase himself before them or - if he displayed a spine - lay into him in front of the world's cameras. You don't shout and rant at someone unless you want to do it - we've probably all seen this - when some bully is just looking for an excuse to lay into someone. Either they get a deal giving half of Ukraine's minerals in return for no defensive commitment or they get to throw him out and 'justify' to the American people how they are backing Russia to the hilt.

How is this playing with America I wonder? Vast swathes of them are appalled, no doubt, but for the Republican voters, who knows. One should never get one's hopes up concerning the average American on this kind of thing. It would be nice to think that they'd feel a little sympathy for the brave leader who stayed at his post when the world believed it was just a matter of days before Russia stormed Kiev, the guy who leads a medium-sized country against the superpower the West has been terrified of for decades. That they wouldn't think it was okay to drop him and side with his enemy because he wouldn't crawl.

Sure, Zelenskyy might have played it better but he was ambushed, outnumbered and interrogated in a language that he is not a master of. And if this was what we saw, who knows how they spoke to him beforehand. Poor bastard. I just hope the Americans can see this for what it is and recognise an egotistical bullying prick for who he is.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

Oh god, I made the mistake of reading the comments after that article. I'd like to see a poll of how this is going down with the people but I assume it's split into blue and red like everything else. Jesus.

[Banquo]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

Oh god, I made the mistake of reading the comments after that article. I'd like to see a poll of how this is going down with the people but I assume it's split into blue and red like everything else. Jesus.

me too.....weird shyte

[Which Tyler]

Daily Mail - NOW STOP THE STATE VISIT FOR "BULLY" TRUMP

[Son of Mathonwy]

Here's the real reason Trump and Zelenskyy's deal blew up in the Oval Office
Even fox are saying (I paraphrase) It wasn't a negotiation, it was a presentation, of a deal that Trump knew Zelenskyy couldn't and wouldn't sign - which angered Trump before the cameras started rolling.

Oh god, I made the mistake of reading the comments after that article. I'd like to see a poll of how this is going down with the people but I assume it's split into blue and red like everything else. Jesus.

me too.....weird shyte

I guess that's what you get in a country that considers selfishness to be a positive characteristic. And one that's had Fox News for decades.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Daily Mail - NOW STOP THE STATE VISIT FOR "BULLY" TRUMP

Yeah, like that's going to happen.

This state visit is a cheap way of avoiding tariffs. It may fail anyway but no way are we going to deliberately insult Trump by withdrawing it.

I think they might want to keep Trump well away from the public and hope there's good soundproofing though. And make sure he's far enough away that rotten vegetables and eggs can't reach him.

[Which Tyler]

Watched The Matrix this evening (so good, wish they'd made a sequel...)
There's a line in there that... doesn't seem so ridiculous now
"The peak of American society is the late '90s. It's literally all downhill after that"

[Son of Mathonwy]

Watched The Matrix this evening (so good, wish they'd made a sequel...)
There's a line in there that... doesn't seem so ridiculous now
"The peak of American society is the late '90s. It's literally all downhill after that"

They got it right (by accident). Just before 9/11*. It was all downhill after that.

Great film, one of the best.

* Although you could argue it was the election of George W Bush in 2000 which led to the War on Terror, and Iraq, and all that.

[Puja]

Watched The Matrix this evening (so good, wish they'd made a sequel...)
There's a line in there that... doesn't seem so ridiculous now
"The peak of American society is the late '90s. It's literally all downhill after that"

They got it right (by accident). Just before 9/11*. It was all downhill after that.

Great film, one of the best.

* Although you could argue it was the election of George W Bush in 2000 which led to the War on Terror, and Iraq, and all that.

You'd have to say that, if you were a time traveller trying to stop this future from coming to pass, the easiest inflection point would be going to the Democratic designer of the infamous Palm Springs butterfly ballots with a copy of the Wikipedia article about the 2000 election and persuading them to change the design (or, better, put Gore/Lieberman at the top of the ballot instead of Bush/Cheney!).

Gore in the White House might not've stopped 9/11, but it would've changed the response - no invasion of Iraq, no Homeland Security, no Patriot Act, no second Bush term meaning no Alito or Roberts on the Supreme Court (and thus no Citizens United allowing unlimited corporate money in politics). Plus, it's hard to argue that, even if he'd only got one term, it would've put the US in a better position for a green transition.

Puja

[Stom]

Watched The Matrix this evening (so good, wish they'd made a sequel...)
There's a line in there that... doesn't seem so ridiculous now
"The peak of American society is the late '90s. It's literally all downhill after that"

They got it right (by accident). Just before 9/11*. It was all downhill after that.

Great film, one of the best.

* Although you could argue it was the election of George W Bush in 2000 which led to the War on Terror, and Iraq, and all that.

You'd have to say that, if you were a time traveller trying to stop this future from coming to pass, the easiest inflection point would be going to the Democratic designer of the infamous Palm Springs butterfly ballots with a copy of the Wikipedia article about the 2000 election and persuading them to change the design (or, better, put Gore/Lieberman at the top of the ballot instead of Bush/Cheney!).

Gore in the White House might not've stopped 9/11, but it would've changed the response - no invasion of Iraq, no Homeland Security, no Patriot Act, no second Bush term meaning no Alito or Roberts on the Supreme Court (and thus no Citizens United allowing unlimited corporate money in politics). Plus, it's hard to argue that, even if he'd only got one term, it would've put the US in a better position for a green transition.

Puja

Nah.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that...it's all economic.

You want to put a stop to this, you need to have assassinated Reagan and Thatcher before they took office. And then done the same to every other plant that would have been put there in their place.

Without neo-capitalism (and its descent into techno-feudalism), none of this happens, INCLUDING the current wars in their current forms.

[Which Tyler]

I think the first mistake was leaving Africa - if humans had stayed where they and the wildlife surrounding them had evolved together...

[paddy no 11]

They got it right (by accident). Just before 9/11*. It was all downhill after that.

Great film, one of the best.

* Although you could argue it was the election of George W Bush in 2000 which led to the War on Terror, and Iraq, and all that.

You'd have to say that, if you were a time traveller trying to stop this future from coming to pass, the easiest inflection point would be going to the Democratic designer of the infamous Palm Springs butterfly ballots with a copy of the Wikipedia article about the 2000 election and persuading them to change the design (or, better, put Gore/Lieberman at the top of the ballot instead of Bush/Cheney!).

Gore in the White House might not've stopped 9/11, but it would've changed the response - no invasion of Iraq, no Homeland Security, no Patriot Act, no second Bush term meaning no Alito or Roberts on the Supreme Court (and thus no Citizens United allowing unlimited corporate money in politics). Plus, it's hard to argue that, even if he'd only got one term, it would've put the US in a better position for a green transition.

Puja

Nah.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that...it's all economic.

You want to put a stop to this, you need to have assassinated Reagan and Thatcher before they took office. And then done the same to every other plant that would have been put there in their place.

Without neo-capitalism (and its descent into techno-feudalism), none of this happens, INCLUDING the current wars in their current forms.

Have you read varafoukakis latest?

[Stom]

You'd have to say that, if you were a time traveller trying to stop this future from coming to pass, the easiest inflection point would be going to the Democratic designer of the infamous Palm Springs butterfly ballots with a copy of the Wikipedia article about the 2000 election and persuading them to change the design (or, better, put Gore/Lieberman at the top of the ballot instead of Bush/Cheney!).

Gore in the White House might not've stopped 9/11, but it would've changed the response - no invasion of Iraq, no Homeland Security, no Patriot Act, no second Bush term meaning no Alito or Roberts on the Supreme Court (and thus no Citizens United allowing unlimited corporate money in politics). Plus, it's hard to argue that, even if he'd only got one term, it would've put the US in a better position for a green transition.

Puja

Nah.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that...it's all economic.

You want to put a stop to this, you need to have assassinated Reagan and Thatcher before they took office. And then done the same to every other plant that would have been put there in their place.

Without neo-capitalism (and its descent into techno-feudalism), none of this happens, INCLUDING the current wars in their current forms.

Have you read varafoukakis latest?

No. Linky?

[Puja]

Nah.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that...it's all economic.

You want to put a stop to this, you need to have assassinated Reagan and Thatcher before they took office. And then done the same to every other plant that would have been put there in their place.

Without neo-capitalism (and its descent into techno-feudalism), none of this happens, INCLUDING the current wars in their current forms.

Fair, although that takes it beyond the "one small change" premise. Bush over Gore in general massively accelerated neo-capitalist economics, the influx of money into politics, polarisation, inequality, and the "War on Terror" supercharged that.

I think the first mistake was leaving Africa - if humans had stayed where they and the wildlife surrounding them had evolved together...

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

They got it right (by accident). Just before 9/11*. It was all downhill after that.

Great film, one of the best.

* Although you could argue it was the election of George W Bush in 2000 which led to the War on Terror, and Iraq, and all that.

You'd have to say that, if you were a time traveller trying to stop this future from coming to pass, the easiest inflection point would be going to the Democratic designer of the infamous Palm Springs butterfly ballots with a copy of the Wikipedia article about the 2000 election and persuading them to change the design (or, better, put Gore/Lieberman at the top of the ballot instead of Bush/Cheney!).

Gore in the White House might not've stopped 9/11, but it would've changed the response - no invasion of Iraq, no Homeland Security, no Patriot Act, no second Bush term meaning no Alito or Roberts on the Supreme Court (and thus no Citizens United allowing unlimited corporate money in politics). Plus, it's hard to argue that, even if he'd only got one term, it would've put the US in a better position for a green transition.

Puja

Nah.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say that...it's all economic.

You want to put a stop to this, you need to have assassinated Reagan and Thatcher before they took office. And then done the same to every other plant that would have been put there in their place.

Without neo-capitalism (and its descent into techno-feudalism), none of this happens, INCLUDING the current wars in their current forms.

If we're looking for visible signs of disaster and decline, 9/11 and then the Financial Crisis of 2008 give us the political and economic hits, setting up the War on Terror, God knows what antidemocratic moves in the US, the tough economic conditions that are driving fascism, in particular giving the UK the Tories and their austerity, and Brexit.

But the seeds of these were obviously planted earlier - the 1979 and 80 elections of Thatcher and Reagan gave us the neoliberalism we just can't get rid of (because the only options considered are neoliberal options). Arguably we could have been saved from this in the 90s but Clinton (whose deregulation gave us the 2008 crisis) and Blair proved themselves to be nearly as conservative as their predecessors, so there have been no remotely leftwing governments in the UK or US since then.

Before all that, how about stopping the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and not having a WWI? WWI pretty directly led to WWII (with the help of the Treaty of Versailles, and good old US financial regulation - or the lack of - which gave us the Wall Street crash and the Great Depression).