Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:56 am
Well I think we got away with all of Borthwick’s questionable selections yesterday. CCS, Pollock, Ben Curry, Earl at 12, Freeman at 13, Smith at 15 all looked decent enough to me. Wales were obviously atrocious but that was a great performance all round.
There would be something quite poetic about Ford getting his 100th international cap in his first Lions test. Any of our backrows could be going, but the competition at flanker is insane. I’m almost disappointed Freeman will be going because I want to see him continue at 13.
Still not sure if we’re massively overrating Furbank since he managed a few games without massive errors, but it will be interesting to see what happens with Marcus when he’s available.
Shame for Murley and Sleightholme but Roebuck grabbed his chance in a far, far more emphatic way. I look forward to seeing him against bigger and better opposition.
LCD’s tackle was a fantastic moment. A good day for Sale supporters in particular.
The narrative would be completely different if Rassie went with CCS at lock, Earl covering centre, Ford on bench, Curry/Curry/Earl back row and Freeman at 13 and then got the results from all of those decisions that Borthwick did.
It wouldn’t be “got away with it”, it would be that he was a total genius. Granted he has two world cups but Borthwick’s dour nature and lack of self promotion definitely works against him.
Given the ludicrous back row options, strength on the right wing (and lack of depth at lock and centre), moves for CCS, Freeman and Earl make absolute sense.
For me, Borthwick is doing a great job. We were 20 minutes of O’Keefe induced chaos away from possibly doing a slam.
I think you’re probably in the minority there.
Ultimately, you can only play what’s in front of you, but we have to be realistic. Wales were abject and I’m not totally convinced the selection bingo would have paid off against any of the other sides.
A big win shouldn’t mask the fact that we’ve looked confused and unconvincing for 4 out of the 5 games.
I do kind of agree with your ‘if Rassie did it’ piece but I think the jury is still definitely out on Borthwick.
2nd is good progress but winning the tournament would have been a totally false reflection of where we are.
We weren't playing any of the other sides though. Borthwick played safer against the better teams and then took more risks against the weaker teams. An emphasis on the defence, kick chase and set piece in the first three and the the attack in the latter two. We ended with the second best points against and points for. The style of rugby was pretty grim against Scotland but that aside we've generally been efficient. More young players coming through and getting game time, in contention to win the tournament up to the very last game.
I don't think Borthwick is doing great job but he's doing a decent one. I don't like how our style of play appears to be still be in transition but I do like how the squad is being developed.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 9:54 am
England’s constant improvement of performance through the tournament vs England’s constant decline in quality of oppo through the tournament. Correlation or causation?
You play what’s in front of you. England were clearly the better team yesterday and played that way for the full 80. Hard to argue that there aren’t signed of improvement particularly watching Ireland struggle against Italy.
Of course we shouldn't read too much into that wales game with them being at such a low point. I could imagine a previous version of our team looking much worse though. I understand the hype with pollock now. It's sometimes hard to know with players bullying at u20 level if it will translate but scoring tries like that away in cardiff is legit talent.
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 9:54 am
England’s constant improvement of performance through the tournament vs England’s constant decline in quality of oppo through the tournament. Correlation or causation?
France are better than Ireland but given we started with an away game in Dublin, I think it’s fair to say the sequence literally went from most to least difficult.
To be fair I don’t think our performances got markedly better, I think it was a lot more to do with the opposition presenting an increasingly reduced challenge.
I think we've come a significant distance on the journey. From a string of narrow losses against T1 teams - and an irritating loss vs Oz - we've won two close ones and then two strong wins. With new players. I'd give Somewhat Better a 7/10.
Let's see the improvement continue!
The only disappointment re yesterday should soon be rectified. That being that the online highlight packages on youtube etc don't include the entire final try showing it all the way from the scrum on 1/2 way. That to me was one of the best moments passages of the game. Dead time. No need to score. We'd won by miles anyway.. but the intent and aggression showed was just brilliant. Brutal for Wales, but wow - what a way to cap the tournament.
With the try being from set piece around 1/2 way and then dominant phases in succession, it reminded me of the early score v NZ in 2019 semi and the 'world cup send off' try by Josh Lewsey v France in the 2nd WC warm up in summer of '03 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q71KtXeh4w). Yesterday wasn't the caliber of opposition as in those cases, but we just looked like a very hungry, well oiled machine that was not going to be stopped.
I wondered if the coaches got a message onto the pitch about our biggest wins, and a chance to set a new record.
As a stats man, Boring Ballsy Selector would have been very aware of the possibility
One thing I've not seen mentioned here: I really liked the attitude shown. It really felt like England set out to silence the crowd. It was a very "we're not having any of this hwyl nonsense today". That little scuffle early on which ended with Chessum had two Welshmen by their jerseys seemed to illustrate a dominance in mindset I've bit seen from England for a while.
Insouciant wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 1:01 pm
The only disappointment re yesterday should soon be rectified. That being that the online highlight packages on youtube etc don't include the entire final try showing it all the way from the scrum on 1/2 way. That to me was one of the best moments passages of the game. Dead time. No need to score. We'd won by miles anyway.. but the intent and aggression showed was just brilliant. Brutal for Wales, but wow - what a way to cap the tournament.
With the try being from set piece around 1/2 way and then dominant phases in succession, it reminded me of the early score v NZ in 2019 semi and the 'world cup send off' try by Josh Lewsey v France in the 2nd WC warm up in summer of '03 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q71KtXeh4w). Yesterday wasn't the caliber of opposition as in those cases, but we just looked like a very hungry, well oiled machine that was not going to be stopped.
I just hope the clip shows why we had the scrum at halfway thereby giving context of the calibre of oppo we were playing against.
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 1:03 pm
I wondered if the coaches got a message onto the pitch about our biggest wins, and a chance to set a new record.
As a stats man, Boring Ballsy Selector would have been very aware of the possibility
I doubt he was as bothered about that, more likely he wanted to see the players stick at it for the full 80 as we've had a tendency to drift away towards the end of games in the last 12 months. The change in halfback added a bit of renewed impetus which was good to see.
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 1:03 pm
I wondered if the coaches got a message onto the pitch about our biggest wins, and a chance to set a new record.
As a stats man, Boring Ballsy Selector would have been very aware of the possibility
I doubt he was as bothered about that, more likely he wanted to see the players stick at it for the full 80 as we've had a tendency to drift away towards the end of games in the last 12 months. The change in halfback added a bit of renewed impetus which was good to see.
Agreed. JvP was good when he came on. Perhaps sending him to the A squad to build sharpness was a good move.
p/d wrote: ↑Mon Mar 17, 2025 8:35 am
Still want to know wtf was the point of Ford on the bench?
Compared with leaving Fin on, having Marcus there or having a centre/FB there etc., yes I'd still ask the question. SB judged the low standard of Wales well to the extent of having Ford as a luxury for the last 20 but would he ever pick that 23 against a stronger team?
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Sun Mar 16, 2025 8:08 am
Was at the game and it was a fabulous experience! Most pleased with how we moved the point of contact in the forwards rather than running into brick walls.
Wales utter butchery early in the second half killed any hopes of a fight back. Their two tries were decently crafted but ultimately soft. Especially the second.
The forwards were exceptional!
From a stadium seat, how did you assess Genge in the loose? On TV it's sometimes hard to get context. It started to look to me like his carrying (though not of huge yardage) was crucial in its timing and effect.
He was a lot better. He actually had his head up and was making good decisions with the ball. Also seemed to be back to using footwork more than just blunt force, which was good. It was the best I've seen him ball in hand for a good while!
p/d wrote: ↑Mon Mar 17, 2025 8:35 am
Still want to know wtf was the point of Ford on the bench?
Compared with leaving Fin on, having Marcus there or having a centre/FB there etc., yes I'd still ask the question. SB judged the low standard of Wales well to the extent of having Ford as a luxury for the last 20 but would he ever pick that 23 against a stronger team?
Indeed. All the talk about justification for his selection is hogwash. Not sure the exact score but we were probably 30 points to the good with Fin going well against a side that were in tatters.
p/d wrote: ↑Mon Mar 17, 2025 8:35 am
Still want to know wtf was the point of Ford on the bench?
Compared with leaving Fin on, having Marcus there or having a centre/FB there etc., yes I'd still ask the question. SB judged the low standard of Wales well to the extent of having Ford as a luxury for the last 20 but would he ever pick that 23 against a stronger team?
Indeed. All the talk about justification for his selection is hogwash. Not sure the exact score but we were probably 30 points to the good with Fin going well against a side that were in tatters.
We weren't going well in the second half though. Wales came out firing and we scored a lucky try after the ball came off Daly's head and Mitchell latched onto the rebound. Ford came off the bench shortly after and did the onfield coach bit then created two tries.
Fin played well but as a team we stalled at the start of the second half. Bringing on the experience of Jamie George and George Ford helped in my opinion. Not sure I'd repeat it as a tactic (well Jamie George I would) but it worked on the day.
