Argentina tour

[SixAndAHalf]

Sorry if there is a thread already on this but I couldn't see one on the front page! I find a good way to summarise recent performances is to look forward to the next series.

Two tests in Argentina on 5 and 12 July. My squad below:

Lions: George, Genge, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, BCurry, TCurry, Earl, Mitchell, FSmith, MSmith, Freeman

Baxter
AOF
Obano

LCD
Dan

Heyes
Fasogbon

Coles
Clark
JHill

CCS
THill
Pollock
Pepper
TWillis
Fisalau

JvP
Quirke

Ford (c)
Slade

Dingwall
Beard
Ojomoh
SAtkinson

Sleightholme
Murley
Roebuck
Daly
Furbank
Hendy

Selection notes:

- It's unlikely Obano and SAtkinson get selected given the current pecking order - but I'll keep beating the drum for it...!
- I'm assuming we continue with the development of CCS and THill as locks hence only selecting three. Doing this exercise demonstrates the lack of quality depth at lock, fly half and centre (compared to back row and wing)!
- I wouldn't take Martin unless he is 100% - a summer off will be more beneficial for him. Likewise Underhill and IFW.
- In the back row, I have skipped a generation (Pearson and Kenningham) and opted to give Pepper and Fisalau experience due to our current depth.
- Back up 10 is very tricky - Slade has played a lot there so I have shoe horned him in giving me an extra centre slot!
- A physical centre could be a bolter in the absence of Lawrence and Freeman. Names that come to mind are Hartley and Wimbush but they haven't featured much this season so far.
- Wing selection is challenging - I'd have liked to include Elliott and Arundell (if available) but hard to put them in above the others listed.
- Steward given a summer off - I don't see him as first choice at 15 and extra time to work on his game in the offseason will be most beneficial. [/list][/list]

[Scrumhead]

Quite like that. I’m not sure our Lions group will be that strong though.

I agree on the claims of all of that list, but I can see Marcus and Ben Curry missing out unless Farrell picks a bigger than expected group.

My summer squad:

1. Baxter / Rodd / Obano
2. Cowan-Dickie / Dan / Langdon
3. Heyes / Opoku-Fordjour / Davison
4. Coles
5. Isiekwe / Clark
6. Cunningham-South / Hill
7. B. Curry / Pollock / Kenningham
8. Willis
9. van Poortvliet / Quirke
10. M. Smith / Ford
11. Murley / Haskell-Collins
12. Dingwall / S. Atkinson
13. Beard / Ojomoh
14. Roebuck / Elliott
15. Furbank / Hendy

Very similar logic on most areas. Like you, 3 locks with CCS and Hill capable of covering.

I left Fasogbon out on the basis that he’ll be lucky to get back playing before the end of the season. Probably better to give him the summer off. Same on Martin - feels like rest is needed for him.

If Marcus does get a Lions call, I’d probably have Furbank as my back up 10 and take Carpenter as an extra 15.

I prefer Kenningham to Fisilau but both are very good, deserving options.

Apparently Sleightholme is having surgery on a foot injury so I’ve promoted OHC from the A squad.

[Oakboy]

Is our 2nd row back-up list so short that SB might throw one of the under-20s in? They are big enough and good enough.

[FKAS]

It'll depend heavily on who tours of course and Argentina are a decent side looking to sharpen up ready for the games against the SH powerhouses.

1. Baxter, Rodd, Obano
2. LCD, Dan, Langdon
3. Heyes, AOF, Fasogbon
4. Clark, Lockett
5. Coles, Isiekwe
6. Kenningham, Hill
7. Underhill, Pollock, Pepper
8. Willis, CCS
9. JvP, Quirke, Randall
10. Ford, M Smith (or F Smith I suspect one will tour)
11. OHC, Murley
12. Dingwall, Ojomoh (I'd like Seb Atkinson but sadly can't see it)
13. Beard, Joseph
14. Roebuck, Hendy, Daly
15. Furbank, Steward

I make that 36, same size as the original 6N squad iirc. Quite a few new faces, particularly in the middle of the pack but also a fair bit of continuity to help with familiarisation. I thought Lockett earned a chance to at least tour after his A side showing. There's also two games prior to the trip to Argentina to experiment with the squad. A XV Vs France and a game Vs USA a good chance to use the outliers mixed in with the expected starters.

The centres are a tough pick. Need someone to really stick their hand up over the next few weeks. Woodward at Tigers would give us another 12 with a nice skillset, the young 12 at Quins that isn't Kerr has been doing nicely and seems a bit of a unit. He could be handy.

[FKAS]

Is our 2nd row back-up list so short that SB might throw one of the under-20s in? They are big enough and good enough.

Kpoku is the most ready but is ineligible. Burrow needs to finish filling out, he is still a teenager. Sodeke might be an option but a bit raw. Arthur Clark and Tom Lockett both have the potential to kick on and fill out a little more and are big units already. Pair them with Alex Coles who's normally around the squad and then have one of the old reliables to be around for experience and we should be ok.

[Scrumhead]

Is our 2nd row back-up list so short that SB might throw one of the under-20s in? They are big enough and good enough.

Big enough, yes? Good enough is very much TBC. Sure they look good against their peers but Kpoku is the only one with any meaningful experience of playing at senior level and he’s ineligible.

If we’re looking at debutant locks, Clark is surely in the box seat.

It’s not so much that the list is short, it’s that it’s very likely we’ll be missing two to the Lions and Martin should probably be rested to try and get over his injuries. When you are starting with your 4th choice, it’s inevitably going to be a shorter list …

If Lockett or Tizard finish the season strongly, they may get promoted from the A squad. I think that’s more likely than a call for Burrow or Sodeke.

[Captainhaircut]

Would really hate to see Ben Curry go with the Lions to play some dirt trackers against some poor Aussie club sides. He really should be going to Argentina and captaining this side.

Underhill, BCurry, Willis back row with Pollock off the bench would be interesting.

[Scrumhead]

It'll depend heavily on who tours of course and Argentina are a decent side looking to sharpen up ready for the games against the SH powerhouses.

1. Baxter, Rodd, Obano
2. LCD, Dan, Langdon
3. Heyes, AOF, Fasogbon
4. Clark, Lockett
5. Coles, Isiekwe
6. Kenningham, Hill
7. Underhill, Pollock, Pepper
8. Willis, CCS
9. JvP, Quirke, Randall
10. Ford, M Smith (or F Smith I suspect one will tour)
11. OHC, Murley
12. Dingwall, Ojomoh (I'd like Seb Atkinson but sadly can't see it)
13. Beard, Joseph
14. Roebuck, Hendy, Daly
15. Furbank, Steward

I make that 36, same size as the original 6N squad iirc. Quite a few new faces, particularly in the middle of the pack but also a fair bit of continuity to help with familiarisation. I thought Lockett earned a chance to at least tour after his A side showing. There's also two games prior to the trip to Argentina to experiment with the squad. A XV Vs France and a game Vs USA a good chance to use the outliers mixed in with the expected starters.

The centres are a tough pick. Need someone to really stick their hand up over the next few weeks. Woodward at Tigers would give us another 12 with a nice skillset, the young 12 at Quins that isn't Kerr has been doing nicely and seems a bit of a unit. He could be handy.

Pretty similar to mine. Are you backing CCS for a Lions call?

On the bolded, the USA game is the last game of the tour - after the two tests with Argentina.

I’m kind of hoping Dingwall has paved the way for Atkinson. I think they’re broadly similar in terms of being more subtle, skilled type of 12, but given his exclusion so far, the odds seem stacked against him.

I can’t see Joseph getting enough game time this season to warrant a call up. However, him and Atkinson as a pairing will be very interesting to keep an eye on next season.

[Scrumhead]

Would really hate to see Ben Curry go with the Lions to play some dirt trackers against some poor Aussie club sides. He really should be going to Argentina and captaining this side.

Underhill, BCurry, Willis back row with Pollock off the bench would be interesting.

Yeah. Same here. CCS, Curry and Willis for me.

I’m only leaving Underhill at home because I feel like we’d benefit more from giving the game time for Ben Curry, Pollock and/or Kenningham/Pepper. I feel a bit bad writing that because he always seems to get the hard end of those decisions despite being consistently excellent when he does play. If Ben Curry does go with the Lions, Underhill should 100% be the starting 7.

[jngf]

Would really hate to see Ben Curry go with the Lions to play some dirt trackers against some poor Aussie club sides. He really should be going to Argentina and captaining this side.

Underhill, BCurry, Willis back row with Pollock off the bench would be interesting.

Yes, Would be really good to see a 6 Underhill 7 B Curry 8 T Willis backrow in action. Think Underhill more than capable of moving to 6 and had really developed his carrying game. In all honesty he’s Lions Class and may well have had 3 Lions test caps already had injuries not occurred.

[Puja]

Sorry if there is a thread already on this but I couldn't see one on the front page! I find a good way to summarise recent performances is to look forward to the next series.
...

- In the back row, I have skipped a generation (Pearson and Kenningham) and opted to give Pepper and Fisalau experience due to our current depth.
- Back up 10 is very tricky - Slade has played a lot there so I have shoe horned him in giving me an extra centre slot!

Great thread!

I'm very keen on Kenningham - I think he's got that special something that makes an international - so I'm not willing to overlook him just yet. Pepper's something special as well though - how we're going to fit all this talent in is going to be a challenge.

I agree with Scrumhead on having Furbank as the backup 10 - I wouldn't take Slade at all. The last thing we need is him clogging up centre selection on this tour and blocking a chance for a new generation to get time in their legs.

Is our 2nd row back-up list so short that SB might throw one of the under-20s in? They are big enough and good enough.

Be tempting to pick Kpoku just so the French can't have him...

If we see CCS as a genuine 2nd row option (and have got buy-in from Quins about him playing there at least some of the time), then we've got 4 with him, Coles, Clark, and Lockett. It may also be that Carnduff gets some good game time there for Leicester, depending on how injured Martin and Chessum are, which could give us another option to look at as well.

Wouldn't be in favour of taking JHill or Isiekwe as people have suggested - the former is done and moving to France and I've yet to see anything to suggest the latter is international quality.

Puja

[FKAS]

It'll depend heavily on who tours of course and Argentina are a decent side looking to sharpen up ready for the games against the SH powerhouses.

1. Baxter, Rodd, Obano
2. LCD, Dan, Langdon
3. Heyes, AOF, Fasogbon
4. Clark, Lockett
5. Coles, Isiekwe
6. Kenningham, Hill
7. Underhill, Pollock, Pepper
8. Willis, CCS
9. JvP, Quirke, Randall
10. Ford, M Smith (or F Smith I suspect one will tour)
11. OHC, Murley
12. Dingwall, Ojomoh (I'd like Seb Atkinson but sadly can't see it)
13. Beard, Joseph
14. Roebuck, Hendy, Daly
15. Furbank, Steward

I make that 36, same size as the original 6N squad iirc. Quite a few new faces, particularly in the middle of the pack but also a fair bit of continuity to help with familiarisation. I thought Lockett earned a chance to at least tour after his A side showing. There's also two games prior to the trip to Argentina to experiment with the squad. A XV Vs France and a game Vs USA a good chance to use the outliers mixed in with the expected starters.

The centres are a tough pick. Need someone to really stick their hand up over the next few weeks. Woodward at Tigers would give us another 12 with a nice skillset, the young 12 at Quins that isn't Kerr has been doing nicely and seems a bit of a unit. He could be handy.

Pretty similar to mine. Are you backing CCS for a Lions call?

On the bolded, the USA game is the last game of the tour - after the two tests with Argentina.

I’m kind of hoping Dingwall has paved the way for Atkinson. I think they’re broadly similar in terms of being more subtle, skilled type of 12, but given his exclusion so far, the odds seem stacked against him.

I can’t see Joseph getting enough game time this season to warrant a call up. However, him and Atkinson as a pairing will be very interesting to keep an eye on next season.

No he's on there as an 8.

I'd love Seb Atkinson to be involved but just can't see it as he's had no A team recognition.

[Stom]

Arundell has a contract for next season, no? So he’s eligible… I’d have him in front of OHC.

I agree that Kenningham is great, but that back row is insane.

Someone mentioned the Quins 12, but I don’t think throwing Waghorn in this early would be useful. Shame Anyanwu is leaving.

[fivepointer]

If he's fit Batley should tour. Wouldnt rule out either Dombrandt or Ewels going. Barbeary might force his way into contention along with Fisilau, Carpenter and Butt.

Does depend on just whos fit and available at the time.

[Oakboy]

T Curry has a managed, chronic injury condition and Underhill is very injury-prone. I think the former should opt out of the Lions unless he is assured a test starting place. The latter should not even be considered for Argentina. Both, for theirs and England's future, should have a summer off.

[Scrumhead]

Updating mine to track contenders (in brackets). Outside bets in italics.

My summer squad:

1. Baxter / Rodd / Obano / (Haffar / Brantingham)
2. Cowan-Dickie / Dan / Langdon (Oghre)
3. Heyes / Opoku-Fordjour / Davison / (Fasogbon / Sela)
4. Coles / (Batley / Lockett)
5. Isiekwe / Clark / (Tizard) / Ewels
6. Cunningham-South / Hill / (Pearson) / Carnduff
7. B. Curry / Pollock / Kenningham / (Pepper)
8. Willis / (Dombrandt / Fisilau / Barbeary)
9. van Poortvliet / Quirke / (Randall)
10. M. Smith / Ford / (C. Atkinson)
11. Murley / Haskell-Collins / (Muir)
12. Dingwall / S. Atkinson (Butt) / Hartley
13. Beard / Ojomoh / (Joseph)
14. Roebuck / Elliott / (Arundell)
15. Furbank / Hendy / (Steward / Carpenter)

Might be one or two I’ve missed but I think these are the main contenders.

[Scrumhead]

T Curry has a managed, chronic injury condition and Underhill is very injury-prone. I think the former should opt out of the Lions unless he is assured a test starting place. The latter should not even be considered for Argentina. Both, for theirs and England's future, should have a summer off.

I agree with you but there’s absolutely no way Tom Curry turns down a Lions tour. Particularly given he has an excellent chance of making the starting XV.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep, and assurance of a test place is just nonsense.

[Oakboy]

Yep, and assurance of a test place is just nonsense.

I should have said convinced of.

[FKAS]

Arundell has a contract for next season, no? So he’s eligible… I’d have him in front of OHC.

I agree that Kenningham is great, but that back row is insane.

Someone mentioned the Quins 12, but I don’t think throwing Waghorn in this early would be useful. Shame Anyanwu is leaving.

OHC has been in good form this season, he's become a real threat in the air and is back to scoring tries. I'd have him over Arundell who's not really set the world alight over in Racing.

Waghorn, that's the one. Would be a good player to have in the squad for experience and to maybe get a run out as part of the XV Vs France or maybe off the bench Vs USA.

[Banquo]

T Curry has a managed, chronic injury condition and Underhill is very injury-prone. I think the former should opt out of the Lions unless he is assured a test starting place. The latter should not even be considered for Argentina. Both, for theirs and England's future, should have a summer off.

I agree with you but there’s absolutely no way Tom Curry turns down a Lions tour. Particularly given he has an excellent chance of making the starting XV.

and it might be that he won't have many more games left tbh

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe take all of Waghorn, Hartley, Wimbush and Rigg. See if you we can convert our glut of big, physical 12s into some backrow options.

[Which Tyler]

Yeah. Same here. CCS, Curry and Willis for me.

I’m only leaving Underhill at home because I feel like we’d benefit more from giving the game time for Ben Curry, Pollock and/or Kenningham/Pepper. I feel a bit bad writing that because he always seems to get the hard end of those decisions despite being consistently excellent when he does play. If Ben Curry does go with the Lions, Underhill should 100% be the starting 7.

Yup, those 3 need more time in an England shirt.
Underhill needs a full pre-season; and neither he nor anyone else would learn anything by playing against Argentina & USA

[Puja]

Maybe take all of Waghorn, Hartley, Wimbush and Rigg. See if you we can convert our glut of big, physical 12s into some backrow options.

Very good!

I'd not be averse to taking all of the first three (if we're discounting Butt for being 25 and "just in a vein of form" then I'd count Rigg in the same category), so the coaches can have a proper look and see who is worth investing their time into. I still don't see the point of picking Ojomoh - he's not especially big or fast or skillful or elusive that I can see and Bath continually pick him behind Lawrence, Butt, and Redpath, but we keep calling him up like he's some future talent whose international career is only a matter of time (and he himself is 25 this year).

Puja

[Captainhaircut]

Yeah. Same here. CCS, Curry and Willis for me.

I’m only leaving Underhill at home because I feel like we’d benefit more from giving the game time for Ben Curry, Pollock and/or Kenningham/Pepper. I feel a bit bad writing that because he always seems to get the hard end of those decisions despite being consistently excellent when he does play. If Ben Curry does go with the Lions, Underhill should 100% be the starting 7.

Yup, those 3 need more time in an England shirt.
Underhill needs a full pre-season; and neither he nor anyone else would learn anything by playing against Argentina & USA

We don’t care about actually trying to win in Argentina then? I’ll give you the USA but this Argentina team are excellent and winning 2-0 there whilst missing our lions would be an incredible achievement and statement. Considering the lions who will be missing, leaving Martin, Underhill and IFW at home (plus anyone else) as some have suggested would make a really tough assignment even harder.