Bath v Gloucester, Sunday. 3.00pm

[SixAndAHalf]

Agreed on OHC now. Was referring more to where his game was at when we first capped him. Think Muir would hit the ground running more.

Think everyone is being a bit harsh on Muir tbh. Always seems incredibly hard to tackle, got a workrate probably unmatched in other wings and is exceptional in the air.

Other left wing options are Murley, OHC, Sleightholme and Ibitoye and don’t think there’s that much between them all- different players that they are.

I wonder with the wing options should we look at left and right or more the roles / expectations. So right wing tends to see the ball more so will be IFW if fit but Murley, Sleightholme or Ibitoye could also be good there. Then left wing is more of a chaser which will be Roebuck now (assuming Freeman is at 13 / on the Lions) but could also be Daly, Elliot, OHC (or Muir)?

[Epaminondas Pules]

I like Muir, ball in hand he’s a quality winger. Horrible to tackle. String as, well a horse.

But it’s a crowded field.

I do find it an odd thing that we’re now into the rhetoric of talking about air prowess foremost on assessment of wingers, rather than the rest of their games.

[Puja]

Fasogbon's game was a portent of an incredible future to come. Started off the first half getting an absolute tuning from Obano at every scrum and ended the half by being able to hold the Gloucester scrum steady in three high pressure scrums, including the one after the Barbeary fuck-up where Obano threw everything he had at him.

To be able to work out, on the pitch and on the fly, how to adapt to a 5'9 international-quality and hugely experienced prop doing his 6'4 frame over and, not only survive, but be able to reach parity, is absolutely golden. And he'll've learned from the experience as well and be able to do better next time it happens to him.

I hope we take him on tour in the summer and let some horrible Argentine fold him a couple of different ways so he can learn from that too.

Puja

[FKAS]

Fasogbon's game was a portent of an incredible future to come. Started off the first half getting an absolute tuning from Obano at every scrum and ended the half by being able to hold the Gloucester scrum steady in three high pressure scrums, including the one after the Barbeary fuck-up where Obano threw everything he had at him.

To be able to work out, on the pitch and on the fly, how to adapt to a 5'9 international-quality and hugely experienced prop doing his 6'4 frame over and, not only survive, but be able to reach parity, is absolutely golden. And he'll've learned from the experience as well and be able to do better next time it happens to him.

I hope we take him on tour in the summer and let some horrible Argentine fold him a couple of different ways so he can learn from that too.

Puja

The Bath pack a bit bigger as well so you'd expect Obano to have more force coming through to support him as well. Good game from Fasogbon, as you say rough start in the scrum shit adapted well. Hopefully we take him, Heyes and AOF as the tightheads on tour this summer. Will help set us up for years to come keeping their development progressing.

[Banquo]

Agreed on OHC now. Was referring more to where his game was at when we first capped him. Think Muir would hit the ground running more.

Think everyone is being a bit harsh on Muir tbh. Always seems incredibly hard to tackle, got a workrate probably unmatched in other wings and is exceptional in the air.

Other left wing options are Murley, OHC, Sleightholme and Ibitoye and don’t think there’s that much between them all- different players that they are.

I wonder with the wing options should we look at left and right or more the roles / expectations. So right wing tends to see the ball more so will be IFW if fit but Murley, Sleightholme or Ibitoye could also be good there. Then left wing is more of a chaser which will be Roebuck now (assuming Freeman is at 13 / on the Lions) but could also be Daly, Elliot, OHC (or Muir)?

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

[Oakboy]

Agreed on OHC now. Was referring more to where his game was at when we first capped him. Think Muir would hit the ground running more.

Think everyone is being a bit harsh on Muir tbh. Always seems incredibly hard to tackle, got a workrate probably unmatched in other wings and is exceptional in the air.

Other left wing options are Murley, OHC, Sleightholme and Ibitoye and don’t think there’s that much between them all- different players that they are.

I wonder with the wing options should we look at left and right or more the roles / expectations. So right wing tends to see the ball more so will be IFW if fit but Murley, Sleightholme or Ibitoye could also be good there. Then left wing is more of a chaser which will be Roebuck now (assuming Freeman is at 13 / on the Lions) but could also be Daly, Elliot, OHC (or Muir)?

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

All to do with the quantity of kicking where the ball stays on the pitch these days?

[FKAS]

Agreed on OHC now. Was referring more to where his game was at when we first capped him. Think Muir would hit the ground running more.

Think everyone is being a bit harsh on Muir tbh. Always seems incredibly hard to tackle, got a workrate probably unmatched in other wings and is exceptional in the air.

Other left wing options are Murley, OHC, Sleightholme and Ibitoye and don’t think there’s that much between them all- different players that they are.

I wonder with the wing options should we look at left and right or more the roles / expectations. So right wing tends to see the ball more so will be IFW if fit but Murley, Sleightholme or Ibitoye could also be good there. Then left wing is more of a chaser which will be Roebuck now (assuming Freeman is at 13 / on the Lions) but could also be Daly, Elliot, OHC (or Muir)?

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

[Banquo]

I wonder with the wing options should we look at left and right or more the roles / expectations. So right wing tends to see the ball more so will be IFW if fit but Murley, Sleightholme or Ibitoye could also be good there. Then left wing is more of a chaser which will be Roebuck now (assuming Freeman is at 13 / on the Lions) but could also be Daly, Elliot, OHC (or Muir)?

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

The q was whether right wing sees more ball, and if so, why. Because most players are right handed, left wingers tend to get more passes (to your point on finishers on the left), but that's a different question I guess.

[FKAS]

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

The q was whether right wing sees more ball, and if so, why. Because most players are right handed, left wingers tend to get more passes (to your point on finishers on the left), but that's a different question I guess.

Yeah the logic of passing off the right hand being easier was the one I used to hear when I played. At international level you'd hope that would be less of a thing but I suppose with the greater skill levels there's greater defensive pressure.

[Mikey Brown]

Passing to the wingers? I think you mean kick-pass.

[SixAndAHalf]

Why do you say right wings see the ball more? Because the logic says left. I’ve not looked at any stats tbf

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

The q was whether right wing sees more ball, and if so, why. Because most players are right handed, left wingers tend to get more passes (to your point on finishers on the left), but that's a different question I guess.

Agreed it seems illogical but it seems to have been the way recently with IFW there and then Freeman seeing more of the ball moving to 14. Would be interesting to see if that is supported by data / has any explanation.

[Banquo]

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

The q was whether right wing sees more ball, and if so, why. Because most players are right handed, left wingers tend to get more passes (to your point on finishers on the left), but that's a different question I guess.

Agreed it seems illogical but it seems to have been the way recently with IFW there and then Freeman seeing more of the ball moving to 14. Would be interesting to see if that is supported by data / has any explanation.

yes, Freeman definitely gets more touches but its role v position I`d say.

[Scrumhead]

England have had the tendency to field the main kick chase threat on the right and the finisher on the left. Freeman plays both. Borthwick did similar at Tigers with Potter being the normal go to right winger and then Nadolo, Ashton etc on the left.

Sleightholme and Murley both played on the left in the 6N.

Broadly the point about roles is correct though.

The q was whether right wing sees more ball, and if so, why. Because most players are right handed, left wingers tend to get more passes (to your point on finishers on the left), but that's a different question I guess.

Yeah the logic of passing off the right hand being easier was the one I used to hear when I played. At international level you'd hope that would be less of a thing but I suppose with the greater skill levels there's greater defensive pressure.

Same here. Whenever I had to cover wing (which was semi regularly as I was often the lightest, quickest forward), I always opted for the left for exactly this reason.

[Which Tyler]

yes, Freeman definitely gets more touches but its role v position I`d say.

I played way infield of the wingers...

Could it be as simple - at the pro level, that you want your pure finisher on the left - and to stay there, so that if there's a chance to pass the ball, you know who's on the end of the move; whilst the right wing is tasked with a more roaming roll, and only really "needs" to be on their own wing, to chase kicks.
You'd assume that the roaming wing is going to get more touches

As for "professionals should be equally proficient passing in each direction" - have we already forgotten the Owen Farrell years?

[Mikey Brown]

Surely this is 99% about personal preference, maybe depending on their kicking/stepping foot, where some strictly play one side and some don’t really mind. I’m not sure I buy that there’s anything much more than chance dictating which side receives the ball more in a game.

For the sake of simplicity it would be nice if IFW preferred 11 and Daly 14, but you’d still just let them play in their preferred positions if they’re paired together, surely.

[Oakboy]

I think SB stuck to one wing chasing and one roaming as he built the side. That got Sleightholme and Murley starts in the more limited roles. As the team develops and both wingers are trusted to roam, depending on the opposition, I'd guess that SB will depend more on two from Freeman, IFW, Daly and Roebuck.

[FKAS]

yes, Freeman definitely gets more touches but its role v position I`d say.

I played way infield of the wingers...

Could it be as simple - at the pro level, that you want your pure finisher on the left - and to stay there, so that if there's a chance to pass the ball, you know who's on the end of the move; whilst the right wing is tasked with a more roaming roll, and only really "needs" to be on their own wing, to chase kicks.
You'd assume that the roaming wing is going to get more touches

As for "professionals should be equally proficient passing in each direction" - have we already forgotten the Owen Farrell years?

Somewhat oddly the left winger tends to roam in the Borthwick system and the right winger stays out on the wing. Presumably because that way the right wing is always there for the crossfield kick or to chase a pressure relieving kick.

[Banquo]

yes, Freeman definitely gets more touches but its role v position I`d say.

As for "professionals should be equally proficient passing in each direction" - have we already forgotten the Owen Farrell years?

lol, yes.

[Puja]

I was quite impressed by this bit of broadcasting innovation on Sunday too: https://archive.ph/LfTZt

“If you tell the viewers that scrums are boring and too complicated, they will eventually believe you,” Flatman says. “I love scrums, and they can be boring. Equally, back lines being shut down by defences and committing handling errors can be boring. Kicking can be wonderful, inspiring and threatening… but also dull.

“I’m not allowed to say ‘nobody knows what’s going on there’ when a break happens in midfield. I won’t be able to explain it quite as readily as Brian O’Driscoll or Austin Healey, but I will try to work it out. I can’t say ‘God knows, on to the next clip’.

“The scrum isn’t going to disappear, no matter what people think, and I just think it’s worth reminding people that there is a lot going on there. If something is entertaining and informative, you’d hope that someone with no interest in scrums might go: ‘Ah, right. That’s it, is it?’”

Hopefully they keep doing it, as I thought it was superb analysis and really accessible to people who may not be experts.

Puja

[Danno]

*hits like button*

[Which Tyler]

“If you tell the viewers that scrums are boring and too complicated, they will eventually believe you,” Flatman says. “I love scrums, and they can be boring. Equally, back lines being shut down by defences and committing handling errors can be boring. Kicking can be wonderful, inspiring and threatening… but also dull.

“I’m not allowed to say ‘nobody knows what’s going on there’ when a break happens in midfield. I won’t be able to explain it quite as readily as Brian O’Driscoll or Austin Healey, but I will try to work it out. I can’t say ‘God knows, on to the next clip’.

“The scrum isn’t going to disappear, no matter what people think, and I just think it’s worth reminding people that there is a lot going on there. If something is entertaining and informative, you’d hope that someone with no interest in scrums might go: ‘Ah, right. That’s it, is it?’”

Hopefully they keep doing it, as I thought it was superb analysis and really accessible to people who may not be experts.

Can't see the tweet, but you can certainly have a Hask for the quoted text - as someone who freely admits to knowing nothing - it doesn't mean that I don't want to understand them better

[Puja]

“If you tell the viewers that scrums are boring and too complicated, they will eventually believe you,” Flatman says. “I love scrums, and they can be boring. Equally, back lines being shut down by defences and committing handling errors can be boring. Kicking can be wonderful, inspiring and threatening… but also dull.

“I’m not allowed to say ‘nobody knows what’s going on there’ when a break happens in midfield. I won’t be able to explain it quite as readily as Brian O’Driscoll or Austin Healey, but I will try to work it out. I can’t say ‘God knows, on to the next clip’.

“The scrum isn’t going to disappear, no matter what people think, and I just think it’s worth reminding people that there is a lot going on there. If something is entertaining and informative, you’d hope that someone with no interest in scrums might go: ‘Ah, right. That’s it, is it?’”

Hopefully they keep doing it, as I thought it was superb analysis and really accessible to people who may not be experts.

Can't see the tweet, but you can certainly have a Hask for the quoted text - as someone who freely admits to knowing nothing - it doesn't mean that I don't want to understand them better

Here, have a source from a different oligarch: