Argentina tour

[Puja]

It's a pretty bleak prospect however you structure it. Underestimating the Pumas is foolish and I can see two losses with our pack unpacked like that

No idea how to fix it mind - we simply don't have the depth in the tight five right now, but it will be interesting

It’s lock that I’m more concerned about than the front row I think.

I’d like to give Coles another go. The Leicester 3 will all be unavailable. Without resorting to Ewels or Isekwe who are we looking at?

Not sure about continuing the CCS/Hill experiments, but if we wanted to go for a super mobile game and fit more backrows in that could be fun.

It's a rotten position to be in (no pun intended) I'd much rather we rolled the dice by playing, say, Coles, Clark and a.n.other instead of Mr Early Red Card and Mr Maybe I'll Play Better This Time

Front row might be ok but is going to be quite raw as a unit

Agreed - we're not so weak there that we need to have a stopgap come in to prevent collapse, like at 10. Let the kids play!

I'd be interested in continuing the CCS experiment as well - if we can convert him (back) to being a lock and still get the powerful carrying, then it'll solve several problems for us.

Puja

[FKAS]

It’s lock that I’m more concerned about than the front row I think.

I’d like to give Coles another go. The Leicester 3 will all be unavailable. Without resorting to Ewels or Isekwe who are we looking at?

Not sure about continuing the CCS/Hill experiments, but if we wanted to go for a super mobile game and fit more backrows in that could be fun.

It's a rotten position to be in (no pun intended) I'd much rather we rolled the dice by playing, say, Coles, Clark and a.n.other instead of Mr Early Red Card and Mr Maybe I'll Play Better This Time

Front row might be ok but is going to be quite raw as a unit

Agreed - we're not so weak there that we need to have a stopgap come in to prevent collapse, like at 10. Let the kids play!

I'd be interested in continuing the CCS experiment as well - if we can convert him (back) to being a lock and still get the powerful carrying, then it'll solve several problems for us.

Puja

I do quite like us being able to use CCS from the bench and able to offer a physical impact option at lock, 6 or 8. Good option to have wearing 19 and then frees us up with our 20 shirt selection. Hopefully dissuades Stacked Bench from going for a 6-2 as well.

[Oakboy]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

[FKAS]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

I'm guessing we'll take four locks plus Ted Hill and CCS. I'd probably go for;

Coles - regular in the squad anyway, mobile and decent at the lineout. Lacks a bit of physicality but that seems to be a mindset /technique thing as he's got the size. Runs good lines (better than most forwards).

Arthur Clark - been in training squads, big lad and seems capable for Glaws. Let's see if he can make the step up. If he can hold down the tighthead lock berth he starts alongside Coles.

Joe Owen - break out season with Bristol. Tall rangey lock. Got some pace, seems good at the lineout. Understudy to Coles. This spot could also go to Tom Lockett who played well for the England A side.

Fourth choice is the tough one as you then need another lock capable of doing the tighthead role and ideally adding some more leadership. Ewels the likely option though he has repeatedly blown his chances with England he is supposed to be a good mentor in camp. Batley if fit might be a better option than Ewels, robust carrying game would certainly help add impact off the bench potentially.

Coles is mid twenties but Lockett/Clark/Owen are around 23ish iirc. Good age range to build off there.

[Danno]

It’s lock that I’m more concerned about than the front row I think.

I’d like to give Coles another go. The Leicester 3 will all be unavailable. Without resorting to Ewels or Isekwe who are we looking at?

Not sure about continuing the CCS/Hill experiments, but if we wanted to go for a super mobile game and fit more backrows in that could be fun.

It's a rotten position to be in (no pun intended) I'd much rather we rolled the dice by playing, say, Coles, Clark and a.n.other instead of Mr Early Red Card and Mr Maybe I'll Play Better This Time

Front row might be ok but is going to be quite raw as a unit

Agreed - we're not so weak there that we need to have a stopgap come in to prevent collapse, like at 10. Let the kids play!

I'd be interested in continuing the CCS experiment as well - if we can convert him (back) to being a lock and still get the powerful carrying, then it'll solve several problems for us.

Puja

CCS is an interesting one, I really hope we (and Quins) don’t bugger him about so much that he never gets a real chance to learn and cement a position. Although I guess he's only one letter off Courtney Go Smash and it never held Lawes back

[Captainhaircut]

Coles drives me mad- someone with his size, athleticism and brain should be dominating. Regularly doesn’t impact games in the way he should.

Isiekwe is another of that ilk- he was very m, very effective in the lineout against Gloucs the other week though and with no Itoje and Chessum plus possibly no natural jumper in the back row, I could definitely see him being in the mix.

With the potential for an inexperienced side, I could see a scenario where Ewels and Isiekwe start in the row with Clark and CCS on the bench.

[Oakboy]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

Interesting question. Would the current Newcastle or Exeter teams beat our under-20 international team?

[Mikey Brown]

I guess picking Jonny Hill at this stage is completely pointless? Is he definitely off to France?

[FKAS]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

Interesting question. Would the current Newcastle or Exeter teams beat our under-20 international team?

Probably wouldn't be much in it.

[Banquo]

Coles drives me mad- someone with his size, athleticism and brain should be dominating. Regularly doesn’t impact games in the way he should.

Isiekwe is another of that ilk- he was very m, very effective in the lineout against Gloucs the other week though and with no Itoje and Chessum plus possibly no natural jumper in the back row, I could definitely see him being in the mix.

With the potential for an inexperienced side, I could see a scenario where Ewels and Isiekwe start in the row with Clark and CCS on the bench.

Saints don't really play in a way that sees forwards 'dominating' (whatever that really means) and have also been struggling. He's also been out a lot of the season. mind, as said before he's not really that kind of player anyway.

[Banquo]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

Interesting question. Would the current Newcastle or Exeter teams beat our under-20 international team?

yes, by quite a lot.

We managed to put 30 points on them, and neither of those two teams would ship as many points as we did.

[Banquo]

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

Interesting question. Would the current Newcastle or Exeter teams beat our under-20 international team?

Probably wouldn't be much in it.

I think they'd murder them up front tbh

[Danno]

Not sure which way round you're putting it

[Banquo]

Not sure which way round you're putting it

see previous comment. U20`s would get tonked up front, and so....

[jngf]

It’s lock that I’m more concerned about than the front row I think.

I’d like to give Coles another go. The Leicester 3 will all be unavailable. Without resorting to Ewels or Isekwe who are we looking at?

Not sure about continuing the CCS/Hill experiments, but if we wanted to go for a super mobile game and fit more backrows in that could be fun.

It's a rotten position to be in (no pun intended) I'd much rather we rolled the dice by playing, say, Coles, Clark and a.n.other instead of Mr Early Red Card and Mr Maybe I'll Play Better This Time

Front row might be ok but is going to be quite raw as a unit

Agreed - we're not so weak there that we need to have a stopgap come in to prevent collapse, like at 10. Let the kids play!

I'd be interested in continuing the CCS experiment as well - if we can convert him (back) to being a lock and still get the powerful carrying, then it'll solve several problems for us.

Puja

Puja -it’s good to get back to same page on something with you:) I really do see CCS as doing a similar role for us as Willem Alberts or Dannie Rosseau did for the boks or Chabal for the French - CCS is not necessarily a purest in any specialist position but with the right balance around him he could potentially add tremendous value at any of 6, 8, 4 or 5 - I think he’s one player where the shirt number doesn’t matter so much given the blend of power, physicality and dynamism he brings - I actually think he has a higher ceiling than Lawes ( including by virtue of being able to play no.8 and tighthead lock - neither of which I recall Lawes ever doing ) if used by England (and Lions?) sensibly.

[Danno]

Lawes was always 5 until he moved to flanker as I recall? Launchbury was partnering him at 4 until Itoje showed up and Launch was perpetually injured

[Captainhaircut]

Coles drives me mad- someone with his size, athleticism and brain should be dominating. Regularly doesn’t impact games in the way he should.

Isiekwe is another of that ilk- he was very m, very effective in the lineout against Gloucs the other week though and with no Itoje and Chessum plus possibly no natural jumper in the back row, I could definitely see him being in the mix.

With the potential for an inexperienced side, I could see a scenario where Ewels and Isiekwe start in the row with Clark and CCS on the bench.

Saints don't really play in a way that sees forwards 'dominating' (whatever that really means) and have also been struggling. He's also been out a lot of the season. mind, as said before he's not really that kind of player anyway.

Dominating a bad word I guess- very vague.

To be clear, I’ve never seen him put in any kind of standout performance in any facet of the game. Never looked at him and thought he was big in defence in the way I might George Martin, never seen him take a lineout apart like Isiekwe did the other week, never seen him put in a big carrying performance. He runs decent lines for his size but nothing else I can really see that makes him stand out.

I’d definitely be skipping right over him and going to Clark, Lockett, Sodeke, Kpoku.

[Danno]

Not sure which way round you're putting it

see previous comment. U20`s would get tonked up front, and so....

[jngf]

Lawes was always 5 until he moved to flanker as I recall? Launchbury was partnering him at 4 until Itoje showed up and Launch was perpetually injured

I’m pretty sure Launch was scrummaging at tight head regardless of shirt number.

[FKAS]

Coles drives me mad- someone with his size, athleticism and brain should be dominating. Regularly doesn’t impact games in the way he should.

Isiekwe is another of that ilk- he was very m, very effective in the lineout against Gloucs the other week though and with no Itoje and Chessum plus possibly no natural jumper in the back row, I could definitely see him being in the mix.

With the potential for an inexperienced side, I could see a scenario where Ewels and Isiekwe start in the row with Clark and CCS on the bench.

Saints don't really play in a way that sees forwards 'dominating' (whatever that really means) and have also been struggling. He's also been out a lot of the season. mind, as said before he's not really that kind of player anyway.

I take dominating to mean dominant tackles and carries over the gain line. He gets over the gain line through good lines rather than pure brutality which I don't have a problem with. It would be helpful if he could offer the option to batter his way over but good lines offer us options. In defence he's not one for big crunching tackles. Lawes always managed those at Saints but not really Coles area of strength though it is worth noting that he rarely misses a tackle it's just they aren't dominant tackles.

[Mikey Brown]

Lawes was always 5 until he moved to flanker as I recall? Launchbury was partnering him at 4 until Itoje showed up and Launch was perpetually injured

I’m pretty sure Launch was scrummaging at tight head regardless of shirt number.

Yep. Shirt numbers aren’t very useful with locks and seems to come down to preference more than anything.

Kpoku is an interesting one I’d forgotten about. Is he on his way back to England? Is he deserving of more than the promise/potential spot as fourth choice at the moment?

[Oakboy]

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

Interesting question. Would the current Newcastle or Exeter teams beat our under-20 international team?

yes, by quite a lot.

We managed to put 30 points on them, and neither of those two teams would ship as many points as we did.

Interesting. Was that pre or post 6N?

[francoisfou]

Kpoku is an interesting one I’d forgotten about. Is he on his way back to England? Is he deserving of more than the promise/potential spot as fourth choice at the moment?

Rugby Pass reported back in March that Jr Kpoku is due to leave Racing at the end of the season and that Sale would be his likely destination, so he could be on the short list for Argentina.

[Scrumhead]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

I'm guessing we'll take four locks plus Ted Hill and CCS. I'd probably go for;

Coles - regular in the squad anyway, mobile and decent at the lineout. Lacks a bit of physicality but that seems to be a mindset /technique thing as he's got the size. Runs good lines (better than most forwards).

Arthur Clark - been in training squads, big lad and seems capable for Glaws. Let's see if he can make the step up. If he can hold down the tighthead lock berth he starts alongside Coles.

Joe Owen - break out season with Bristol. Tall rangey lock. Got some pace, seems good at the lineout. Understudy to Coles. This spot could also go to Tom Lockett who played well for the England A side.

Fourth choice is the tough one as you then need another lock capable of doing the tighthead role and ideally adding some more leadership. Ewels the likely option though he has repeatedly blown his chances with England he is supposed to be a good mentor in camp. Batley if fit might be a better option than Ewels, robust carrying game would certainly help add impact off the bench potentially.

Coles is mid twenties but Lockett/Clark/Owen are around 23ish iirc. Good age range to build off there.

This is pretty much where I’m at.

I really like the look of Owen but given he’s not yet made an A squad, I think it’s a bit of a leap for him to make this tour. England have shown interest in Batley so if he’s fit, I’d give him a better chance. I’m not sure why James Dun seems to be so far off the radar? No-one ever mentions him but I think he’s a very underrated player.

I would imagine Coles and Clark are inked in and Isiekwe will take one of the other spots. Lockett vs. Tizard the other. Maybe Munga?

[fivepointer]

It's strange to talk of a recall for the likes of Ewels but not mention two dominant locks in our under-20 team. Yes, it's impractical to select them to start based on lack of premiership game time but what would be so daft about taking one or both for experience off the bench?

So the senior players aren't good enough but the young guys who can't get game time because of the average senior players are?

I'm guessing we'll take four locks plus Ted Hill and CCS. I'd probably go for;

Coles - regular in the squad anyway, mobile and decent at the lineout. Lacks a bit of physicality but that seems to be a mindset /technique thing as he's got the size. Runs good lines (better than most forwards).

Arthur Clark - been in training squads, big lad and seems capable for Glaws. Let's see if he can make the step up. If he can hold down the tighthead lock berth he starts alongside Coles.

Joe Owen - break out season with Bristol. Tall rangey lock. Got some pace, seems good at the lineout. Understudy to Coles. This spot could also go to Tom Lockett who played well for the England A side.

Fourth choice is the tough one as you then need another lock capable of doing the tighthead role and ideally adding some more leadership. Ewels the likely option though he has repeatedly blown his chances with England he is supposed to be a good mentor in camp. Batley if fit might be a better option than Ewels, robust carrying game would certainly help add impact off the bench potentially.

Coles is mid twenties but Lockett/Clark/Owen are around 23ish iirc. Good age range to build off there.

This is pretty much where I’m at.

I really like the look of Owen but given he’s not yet made an A squad, I think it’s a bit of a leap for him to make this tour. England have shown interest in Batley so if he’s fit, I’d give him a better chance. I’m not sure why James Dun seems to be so far off the radar? No-one ever mentions him but I think he’s a very underrated player.

I would imagine Coles and Clark are inked in and Isiekwe will take one of the other spots. Lockett vs. Tizard the other. Maybe Munga?

Mentioned him a few times on here. He is under rated. Does the basics well and is very consistent. Owen does some real eye catching stuff but Dun does a lot of quality unglamorous work in the mauls and at the breakdown. Like Owen, he has excellent hands.

Another name to throw into the mix is Ben Bamber. Big lad getting regular game time at Sale and looking pretty good.