Coaching options

[Cameo]

I don't want to get into a sack/keep Townsend debate as we all know the arguments either way. What I do want to think about is the options going forward both at national level and for the two pro teams as it is feasible we will need new coaches at all three in the next year or so (and some would say the u20s too but harder from the outside to judge that or who would be a good replacement).

So, the candidates:

Scottish:

Clark Laidlaw - Too early to consider him for the national job, but would be a candidate for Edinburgh or Glasgow if he wants it. Into season two for the Hurricanes and will be easier to judge in a month or two.

Greig Laidlaw - Results haven't sounded too flash in his first year as a head coach. Impressive sounding guy though so can imagine him impressing the higher ups. Would be a big gamble for any of the jobs at the moment.

Peter Murchie - Linked to Japan, but very highly rated apparently. Would be a big move to make him head coach without him having done it elsewhere (with only two teams, harder to gamble) but not off the cards.

Pete Horne - Similar to Murchie but a few years behind. Clearly rated though.

John Dalzeil: has similar experience than some who have moved to a head coach role, but hard to judge. Scotland's forwards play hasn't looked too innovative, but maybe he deserves credit for us scrapping.

Have I missed anyone who might be a near future head coach contender?

International:

Franco Smith - Clear frontrunner for Scotland job if it comes up before he has moved elsewhere. I like him but have some doubts. With the very big exception of the title winning run last season, I think his Glasgow team have struggled in their very biggest games (Toulon and a couple of Harlequins games come to mind). Wouldn't be unhappy to see him given a chance, but would like them to consider options and ask what he has learnt from Italy experience.

Others are all speculative, but I can think of the below who may be interested in the Scotland job and in some cases a head coach jobs at pro teams:

- Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown: Combo that has had serious success and All Blacks job won't come up for a while. Joseph may be happy back at Highlanders and Brown might want to win World Cup with SA.

- Pat Lam: Has a Scottish connection and some good experience both internationally and domestically.

- Rennie: Would definitely divide opinion after his Glasgow days, but I thought he was building something with Australia.

- Sean Edwards: Can't really see it, but he has been linked to head coach jobs before. I am not sure about people like Felix Jones too.

Nigel Carolan: Sounds impressive and good experience at Connacht before Glasgow. Would maybe be the continuity candidate and bring youngsters through. Probs in the box seat for the Glasgow job if Smith goes and he wants it.

- Graham Rowntree/Stuart Lancaster: Probably more Edinburgh ideas than Scotland but have had good and bad spells.

Anyone else? Leon McDonald is available now, but doesn't excite me. Big Vern? Parachute Nucifora right into the top job??

It feels like having three top coaches at once would make a big difference. It hamstrings Scotland to have half its players playing for an underperforming team. But hard to know where they will find the coaches/the money. Could really do with a gamble on a young coach paying off.

[septic 9]

So, the candidates:

Scottish:

Clark Laidlaw - Too early to consider him for the national job, but would be a candidate for Edinburgh or Glasgow if he wants it. Into season two for the Hurricanes and will be easier to judge in a month or two.

Greig Laidlaw - Results haven't sounded too flash in his first year as a head coach. Impressive sounding guy though so can imagine him impressing the higher ups. Would be a big gamble for any of the jobs at the moment.

Peter Murchie - Linked to Japan, but very highly rated apparently. Would be a big move to make him head coach without him having done it elsewhere (with only two teams, harder to gamble) but not off the cards.

Pete Horne - Similar to Murchie but a few years behind. Clearly rated though.

John Dalzeil: has similar experience than some who have moved to a head coach role, but hard to judge. Scotland's forwards play hasn't looked too innovative, but maybe he deserves credit for us scrapping.

Have I missed anyone who might be a near future head coach contender?

Craig Laidlaw - agree. Seems to have been a decent but more ? 7s coach but has it all to prove in 15s
Mr Grieg - again agree. TBH he was a great on field organiser and leader but not sure whether that will xfer to head coach. He has the advantage I suppose over some of being a head coach, but in a 2nd tier IIRC, big budget and no doubt loads of off filed support
Murchie - Personal opinion is I am surprised he is off but might mean Franco is staying - I think he was quite probably being lined up to step up. He previously was head coach at Ayr, into super 6 and was a main driver of their current empire
Horne is highly rated and its only a matter of time. Glasgow have a track record of taking assistant Scotland coaches on as head coach
Dalzeil seemed to be on an upward accelerated promotion scheme but seems to have stalled a bit. Again as a Scotland Assistant coach, he will be looked at - this is a development path as well as needing performance

As to others, if the teams had their own proper DoRs I'd have Mike Blair back in an instant

So my prefernce right now if there were 2 vacancies, would be Murchie r Horne to Glasgow, Dalziel to edinburgh

[septic 9]

International:

Franco Smith - Clear frontrunner for Scotland job if it comes up before he has moved elsewhere. I like him but have some doubts. With the very big exception of the title winning run last season, I think his Glasgow team have struggled in their very biggest games (Toulon and a couple of Harlequins games come to mind). Wouldn't be unhappy to see him given a chance, but would like them to consider options and ask what he has learnt from Italy experience.

Others are all speculative, but I can think of the below who may be interested in the Scotland job and in some cases a head coach jobs at pro teams:

- Jamie Joseph/Tony Brown: Combo that has had serious success and All Blacks job won't come up for a while. Joseph may be happy back at Highlanders and Brown might want to win World Cup with SA.

- Pat Lam: Has a Scottish connection and some good experience both internationally and domestically.

- Rennie: Would definitely divide opinion after his Glasgow days, but I thought he was building something with Australia.

- Sean Edwards: Can't really see it, but he has been linked to head coach jobs before. I am not sure about people like Felix Jones too.

Nigel Carolan: Sounds impressive and good experience at Connacht before Glasgow. Would maybe be the continuity candidate and bring youngsters through. Probs in the box seat for the Glasgow job if Smith goes and he wants it.

- Graham Rowntree/Stuart Lancaster: Probably more Edinburgh ideas than Scotland but have had good and bad spells.

Anyone else? Leon McDonald is available now, but doesn't excite me. Big Vern? Parachute Nucifora right into the top job??

It feels like having three top coaches at once would make a big difference. It hamstrings Scotland to have half its players playing for an underperforming team. But hard to know where they will find the coaches/the money. Could really do with a gamble on a young coach paying off.

Smith. Clearly would be welcomed by all I think. As a Glasgow fan I'll be gutted if he goes anywhere
Joseph. Not for me. Mixed record IMHO and just something about him and his teams
Lam. TBH I think he is hugely over-rated. Had a budget to bust a bank at Bristol and failed badly
Rennie. Think would be welcomed b most TBH. not by me though. I fear he'd be off again at the first opportunity and talking to others from the start of his contract. He inherited a squad at Glasgow, made no signings worth a mention and developed nobody
Edwards. Nah. Never been a head coach anywhere, and only ever a defence coach
Carolan. Can't see it. More likley Glasgow head coach but I think down the pecking order for that
Rowntree. The reasons for leaving/being sacked from Munster have never been revealed, unless the are and are "OK" then that rules him out for me and should for the SRU. And that is his only head coach experience. Besides that his spell as forwards coach for England was shall we say, mixed coach
Lancaster - clearly doesn't work for him anywhere as a head coach. I'd have him as coach of U20s, good recor in development , or as DoR
Cotter. No thanks. Failed regularly since he left us, 63 now and fear his time has gone
Nucifora. Hasn't coached in well over a decade, also 63 and seems to have a penchant for not being here
McDonald is an interesting one. Not the best club coaching record (which was fairly limited at top level) and his falling out with Scott Robertson raises questions. He might be a decent shout for a pro team, maybe Edinburgh

This is a really tough task, with not many genuine options out there - some of whom would obviously be a step backwards. Hence I am wary about replacing Toonie (again without wanting to open that debate in this thread)

[Scottish Caley Fan]

Leon MacDonald does have a job doesn't he, I'm sure he is on the coaching staff of The Western Force in Super Rugby .

I think it's a foregone conclusion that Franco Smith will replace Gregor Townsend whenever that may be, especially if Wales and Tigers don't snap him up.

I would like Clark Laidlaw to replace Franco when the time comes and then, if successful he can then replace Franco Smith as Scotland coach in the next 5+ years .

I think most expect that, unless we beat France then Gregor could actually be replaced after this tournament as Messrs Nucifora and Williamson won't be happy with another 2/5 campaign which has us ended 4th in table and at 7th in the rankings!

Seems like even The Scotsman are stating Saturday is a must win in terms of Gregor's future: https://www.scotsman.com/sport/sport-op ... ay-5013311

[Cameo]

I think McDonald's job is just a short term consultant job til the end of the season, so not hard to get out of.

As I say, I like Franco but I'm a bit concerned about it being a foregone conclusion. If they pick him, I want it to be because they are comfortable he is the best option at international level, not just because it will keep the fans happy.

Agree Septic about it being tricky. I'm keener on Joseph than you are, though no reason to think he would come, but not many obvious candidates. Having said that, Nucifora and others might be confident in some of the internal candidates having worked with them or have some gems in mind (more for the club jobsl. It is not like Franco Smith looked like a sure fire thing when we appointed him.

For the Scotland job, the unknown is whether any of the other big names might surprise us by being interested. I'm not saying all of them would necessarilly be good options, but for all we know Jacques Neiberger, Mark McCall (despite previous statements), Ugo Mola or O'Gara would be interested in an international job and not willing to wait.

[Scottish Caley Fan]

Ah ok, I didn't realise that regarding Leon . I suppose he may still be of interest to the SRU despite Alex Williamson now being CEO because he was strongly touted after the world cup exit so he must have some admirers within the SRU.

I don't think Franco would be appointed just to appease the fans, he'd be appointed on the basis of him performing very well at Glasgow plus the fact he won them their first major title since Gregor Townsend.

On the others you mentioned, I had to Google who Ugo Mila was as he's a new name to me, I suspect though that France will be a job that appeals to him more than us seeing as Galthie is also under deep pressure. Ronan O'Gara and Jacques Nienaber are no gos imho unfortunately as I doubt the Scotland job appeals to them. Mark McCall is an interesting shout though, I wouldn't say no to him as he seems to have done a reasonable job at Saracens, however I can't see him wanting to leave that job just yet.

I'll throw another name into the hat though: Leo Cullen . Like Mark McCall, I doubt he'd leave his current role though.

[septic 9]

After 2 or 3 seasons IIRC Cullen was nearly sacked before IRFU brought Lancaster in as a "senior coach". In reality he was a mentor, sounding board and a steady hand. That turned Leinster around big time - they had been poor prior to that despite their players and budget. This is why I see Lancaster, together with his poor record as a head coach but good develop record as a DoR type rather

[BaldiePete]

I’ve not been one for saying Toony Out after every match but I think his time is up now and we need to give someone else an opportunity with these players. It’s not a visceral thing like it is with Everitt at Edinburgh but it’s time to shake hands, say thank-you and move on. I really don’t know who would be best to replace him, Franco I suppose, but we might have to be quick because Wales might be after him.

[Cameo]

Not the main upshot, but the last month or so will have quietened down the Franco must take over from Townsend crowd (not meaning to be derogative, I share the temptation for something new after so long of Townsend).

Don't get me wrong, I still think he is a good coach and has done a very good job for Glasgow, but the criticisms of Glasgow after the Leinster game are the same as Townsend gets after we lose to Ireland. Truth is, it's not easy!

I have though, always had a slight concern about Franco in the biggest toughest games. There is a huge caveat in how well they played in the semi and final last year, but otherwise there does seem to have been a tendency to underwhelm in the big knockout games once they come up against a top team going all guns blazing. I just think there is a slightly different skillset and game plan winning most games over a season and winning big one off games. Culture, enthusiasm, good structures and good skills is enough to achieve the first, the second is a lot tougher.

[septic 9]

Not the main upshot, but the last month or so will have quietened down the Franco must take over from Townsend crowd (not meaning to be derogative, I share the temptation for something new after so long of Townsend).

Don't get me wrong, I still think he is a good coach and has done a very good job for Glasgow, but the criticisms of Glasgow after the Leinster game are the same as Townsend gets after we lose to Ireland. Truth is, it's not easy!

I have though, always had a slight concern about Franco in the biggest toughest games. There is a huge caveat in how well they played in the semi and final last year, but otherwise there does seem to have been a tendency to underwhelm in the big knockout games once they come up against a top team going all guns blazing. I just think there is a slightly different skillset and game plan winning most games over a season and winning big one off games. Culture, enthusiasm, good structures and good skills is enough to achieve the first, the second is a lot tougher.

I agree he is far from a shoe in to the Scotland job, but for a slightly different reason. I very much doubt he will be Glasgow coach after next season (when contract up), and also doubt he will want to stay in Scotland. he is clearly extremely pissed off with the Venter thing - I think he is a man of high principle and will not want to remain part of a system he sees as interference with a pro team coach's ability to do the best job
FWIW, Townsend's move from Glasgow head coach was for exactly the same reason, but he was offered the Scotland job to stay in Scotland
And I suspect the Venter thing hit morale this week

[Cameo]

Not the main upshot, but the last month or so will have quietened down the Franco must take over from Townsend crowd (not meaning to be derogative, I share the temptation for something new after so long of Townsend).

Don't get me wrong, I still think he is a good coach and has done a very good job for Glasgow, but the criticisms of Glasgow after the Leinster game are the same as Townsend gets after we lose to Ireland. Truth is, it's not easy!

I have though, always had a slight concern about Franco in the biggest toughest games. There is a huge caveat in how well they played in the semi and final last year, but otherwise there does seem to have been a tendency to underwhelm in the big knockout games once they come up against a top team going all guns blazing. I just think there is a slightly different skillset and game plan winning most games over a season and winning big one off games. Culture, enthusiasm, good structures and good skills is enough to achieve the first, the second is a lot tougher.

I agree he is far from a shoe in to the Scotland job, but for a slightly different reason. I very much doubt he will be Glasgow coach after next season (when contract up), and also doubt he will want to stay in Scotland. he is clearly extremely pissed off with the Venter thing - I think he is a man of high principle and will not want to remain part of a system he sees as interference with a pro team coach's ability to do the best job
FWIW, Townsend's move from Glasgow head coach was for exactly the same reason, but he was offered the Scotland job to stay in Scotland
And I suspect the Venter thing hit morale this week

Is the Venter thing really that big a deal? Certainly think it would be strange if it hit morale significantly this week. Players leave all the time, and it's not like it just came out thid week.

It would have been good if they could have kept him, depending how much he wanted amd how long a contract, but no coach works entirely free of interference. Plenty of owners would question giving a new contract to a 32 year old
who doesn't start when everyone is fit.

On the overall policy, I think it makes sense if the idea is fewer nsq players but higher quality. For example, I'd be okay with Glasgow only being allowed one nsq back rower and one nsq back three player (the back three restriction might cause more of an issue for the pro-teams actually). However, I agree with those who say it needs to be phased in and needs to be communicated.

[Scottish Caley Fan]

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that Franco isn't the man to replace Gregor Townsend (that started after the ECC humbling against Leinster) and instead want Leon MacDonald or possibly Clark Laidlaw (though it may be too early for CL ).

I still don't envisage Franco going to Wales as I'm fairly certain that they have set their minds on Steve Tandy, so I can 100% see Franco staying at Glasgow or going back home and coaching one of the South African sides who's coaches are under immense pressure .

[Mikey Brown]

What are MacDonald or Laidlaw offering that Smith doesn’t? I don’t really follow super rugby, but I’m vaguely aware of this sentiment that neither of them can quite get their teams across the finish line when it matters.

No idea how fair/true that is though.

The Leinster results are bad, and Glasgow are still a team who can occasionally put in a complete non-appearance, but are others touted ahead of Smith now because they are actually better?

Depends if you view his time with Italy as a black mark or a great learning experience, I suppose.

[Cameo]

What are MacDonald or Laidlaw offering that Smith doesn’t? I don’t really follow super rugby, but I’m vaguely aware of this sentiment that neither of them can quite get their teams across the finish line when it matters.

No idea how fair/true that is though.

The Leinster results are bad, and Glasgow are still a team who can occasionally put in a complete non-appearance, but are others touted ahead of Smith now because they are actually better?

Depends if you view his time with Italy as a black mark or a great learning experience, I suppose.

It sounds to be like just wanting the new shiny thing.

Clark Laidlaw has shown promise but in two seasons with a very good squad has done about how you would expect. Knocked out before the final both times. It'll be a great learning experience for him, but would be a huge step up to get the Scotland job.

McDonald has more experience and some success but wouldn't be in the conversation for the New Zealand job next time round. He might do well, but would be a bit of a gamble.

I think the Scotland squad is very good, but I think some are a bit unrealistic by how well it should be doing. Fine, let's try something new, but we shouldn't assume a new coach will be an improvement.