Argentina tour

[Mikey Brown]

I’d love it if Ma’asi-white stepped up. My gut instinct is that, as a combination. he doesn’t quite have enough pace or power to really make dents in international midfields, and nor does he have the playmaking to make up for it.

But he’s very young, has been doing quite well at club level, and stranger things have happened.

Would love it if he came good

Yeah, I need convincing on Ma’asi-White. I’ve said this before but I think the PI connection and and what people associate with this gives rise to really unhelpful ‘new Tuilagi’ branding (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e32g2yyyxo).

Not hating on RMW BTW. The articles and lazy comparisons aren’t his fault, but he’s only had regular starts this calendar year and while he’s done well, I’m far more interested in Seb Atkinson who has looked consistently very good in an inconsistent side for 3yrs or so.

I’d say the same about Waghorn too FWIW. Promising and well worth checking out, but too soon for more than the ‘XV’ game IMO.

Woodward has at least had more or less a full season and it’s not insignificant that Cheika has consistently picked him.

I’m choosing to ignore the number 8 chat …

With Woodward it'll be interesting to see what Chieka does for the final. Woodward seemed to be the third choice centre and trying to push into the starting spot midway through the season. The injury to Perese really cemented his spot in the first team and he's looked good since. As demonstrated by his off the bench cameo Vs Sale Perese is pretty explosive and Chieka might opt for that over Woodward's more tactical and organisational abilities.

Woodward definitely has a couple of areas where he needs a full pre seasons work. One is his kicking accuracy, he spots the right kick but doesn't always execute well. His direct running threat could do with some work as well.

Have you managed to pair Woodward and Perese at all yet? Feels like that would be potentially very effective.

I do understand why Kata is a consistent presence, but feel like his all-or-nothing style could be a useful weapon off the bench, whilst Perese is an option at 13 outside Woodward?

[Puja]

I’d love it if Ma’asi-white stepped up. My gut instinct is that, as a combination. he doesn’t quite have enough pace or power to really make dents in international midfields, and nor does he have the playmaking to make up for it.

But he’s very young, has been doing quite well at club level, and stranger things have happened.

Would love it if he came good

Yeah, I need convincing on Ma’asi-White. I’ve said this before but I think the PI connection and and what people associate with this gives rise to really unhelpful ‘new Tuilagi’ branding (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e32g2yyyxo).

Not hating on RMW BTW. The articles and lazy comparisons aren’t his fault, but he’s only had regular starts this calendar year and while he’s done well, I’m far more interested in Seb Atkinson who has looked consistently very good in an inconsistent side for 3yrs or so.

I’d say the same about Waghorn too FWIW. Promising and well worth checking out, but too soon for more than the ‘XV’ game IMO.

Woodward has at least had more or less a full season and it’s not insignificant that Cheika has consistently picked him.

I’m choosing to ignore the number 8 chat …

With Woodward it'll be interesting to see what Chieka does for the final. Woodward seemed to be the third choice centre and trying to push into the starting spot midway through the season. The injury to Perese really cemented his spot in the first team and he's looked good since. As demonstrated by his off the bench cameo Vs Sale Perese is pretty explosive and Chieka might opt for that over Woodward's more tactical and organisational abilities.

Woodward definitely has a couple of areas where he needs a full pre seasons work. One is his kicking accuracy, he spots the right kick but doesn't always execute well. His direct running threat could do with some work as well.

The correct answer is a Woodward/Perese combination. It won't happen because Cheika loves Kata (and I will admit, has been using him quasi-effectively of late), but any reduction in bosh is more than counterpoised by having two competent centres (and not going down to 14 at some point).

I would agree that Woodward is not international quality yet - this opportunity's a season too soon for him, to my mind. We'll have Dingwall and SAtkinson who should have first dibs, and then RMW as a project, so it's not unreasonable not to look further than that.

Did Donoghue come on at 12 for Bath on Friday, btw? I thought he did, but I was at my rugby club's end of season dinner, so it was all a bit blurry.

Puja

[FKAS]

Yeah, I need convincing on Ma’asi-White. I’ve said this before but I think the PI connection and and what people associate with this gives rise to really unhelpful ‘new Tuilagi’ branding (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union ... e32g2yyyxo).

Not hating on RMW BTW. The articles and lazy comparisons aren’t his fault, but he’s only had regular starts this calendar year and while he’s done well, I’m far more interested in Seb Atkinson who has looked consistently very good in an inconsistent side for 3yrs or so.

I’d say the same about Waghorn too FWIW. Promising and well worth checking out, but too soon for more than the ‘XV’ game IMO.

Woodward has at least had more or less a full season and it’s not insignificant that Cheika has consistently picked him.

I’m choosing to ignore the number 8 chat …

With Woodward it'll be interesting to see what Chieka does for the final. Woodward seemed to be the third choice centre and trying to push into the starting spot midway through the season. The injury to Perese really cemented his spot in the first team and he's looked good since. As demonstrated by his off the bench cameo Vs Sale Perese is pretty explosive and Chieka might opt for that over Woodward's more tactical and organisational abilities.

Woodward definitely has a couple of areas where he needs a full pre seasons work. One is his kicking accuracy, he spots the right kick but doesn't always execute well. His direct running threat could do with some work as well.

Have you managed to pair Woodward and Perese at all yet? Feels like that would be potentially very effective.

I do understand why Kata is a consistent presence, but feel like his all-or-nothing style could be a useful weapon off the bench, whilst Perese is an option at 13 outside Woodward?

As Puja mentions, Chieka has a hard on for Kata. For some reason he's the go to selection most the time.

Perese whilst more explosive is just as likely to cop a card for dodgy tackle technique and is not as physically strong as Kata.

I wouldn't mind seeing a run of games with Woodward/Perese next season. Hoping to see a bit more of Will Wand next season as well.

[Puja]

Have only just realised that the Prem final is this weekend, but the England XV vs France XV game is the weekend after. I had thought that it was as per usual with the Barbarians/England XV game being played on the Sunday of the Prem final weekend and that everyone involved in the final was automatically ruled out. But if there's a week inbetween, then it's perfectly possible that someone could play both.

Is it actually confirmed that Prem final players won't be involved or have we just been assuming?

Puja

[fivepointer]

Guess it depends when the squad convenes and the state of the players post the final.

I'd imagine that the Bath-Tigers players wont be included.

[Banquo]

https://www.englandrugby.com/follow/new ... e-xv-match

[FKAS]

Training squad
Forwards

Fin Baxter (Harlequins)

Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs)

Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)

Alex Coles (Northampton Saints)

Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins)

Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)

Theo Dan (Saracens)

Trevor Davison (Northampton Saints)

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)

Afolabi Fasogbon (Gloucester Rugby)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)

Manny Iyogun (Northampton Saints)

Jack Kenningham (Harlequins)

George Kloska (Bristol Bears)

Curtis Langdon (Northampton Saints)

Tom Lockett (Northampton Saints)

Gabriel Oghre (Bristol Bears)

Tom Pearson (Northampton Saints)

Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks)

Tom Willis (Saracens)

Backs

Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)

Seb Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)

Oscar Beard (Harlequins)

Charlie Bracken (Saracens)

Joe Carpenter (Sale Sharks)

Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs)

George Ford (Sale Sharks)

Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (Sale Sharks)

Cadan Murley (Harlequins)

Luke Northmore (Harlequins)

Will Porter (Harlequins)

Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)

Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)

Rehabilitation: George Furbank (Northampton Saints). Not considered for selection: Joe Batley (Bristol Bears), Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), George Martin (Leicester Tigers), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears).

[fivepointer]

Charlie Bracken is an interesting call up.

Davison and Kloska to cover for Heyes and AOF. IFW included so he must be earmarked to play.

Do we really need 6 centres?

[Banquo]

Charlie Bracken a wild card there.

[Mikey Brown]

Didn’t realise Batley was injured again. I was keen to see more of him.

Maybe there is something to Slade being there as flyhalf cover as well? It still does seem like a lot of centres.

[Which Tyler]

LP: Baxter, Rodd, Iyogun
HK: Langdon, Dan, Oghre
TP: Davison, Fasogbon, Kloska
LK: Coles, Isiekwe, Clark, Lockett, Capstick
FL: Curry, Cunningham-South, Kenningham, Pearson
N8: Willis, Dombrandt

SH: Quirke, Porter, Bracken
FH: Ford, CAtkinson
CE: Dingwall, Ma'asi-White, SAtkinson, Slade, Beard, Northmore
WG: Feyi-Waboso, Roebuck, Sleightholme, Murley
FB: Carpenter

[fivepointer]

Didn’t realise Batley was injured again. I was keen to see more of him.

Maybe there is something to Slade being there as flyhalf cover as well? It still does seem like a lot of centres.

Me too. If there is a guy who deserves a chance its him. He was excellent for Bristol on Friday.

[FKAS]

Does seem a bit like Borthwick is auditioning centres ahead of the summer tour doesn't it.

[Banquo]

Who will lose out post prem final?

[Scrumhead]

The most likely additions would be:

Bath: T. Hill, Underhill, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Ojomoh, Muir and Donoghue (Ewels and Butt could also be possibles)

Tigers: Heyes, JvP, Hassell-Collins and Steward (Woodward and Radwan as possibles)

Also worth noting George and AOF are currently training with the Lions but not joining the tour squad.

As I see it, the most likely substitutions for the tour squad are:

George for Oghre
Heyes for Davison
AOF for Kloska
T. Hill for Capstick
Underhill for Pearson or Kenningham
Spencer for Porter
JvP for Bracken
Donoghue for C. Atkinson
Ojomoh for Northmore or S. Atkinson

Steward as an addition rather than a replacement.

Personally, I really don’t think IFW should tour. I’d give his spot to Hassell-Collins or Radwan.

[Danno]

Does seem a bit like Borthwick is auditioning centres ahead of the summer tour doesn't it.

Fine by me, we definitely need some upgrades there

[TheNomad]

I continue to believe that PBB should be getting a look

[Puja]

Didn’t realise Batley was injured again. I was keen to see more of him.

Maybe there is something to Slade being there as flyhalf cover as well? It still does seem like a lot of centres.

Batley must have been rude to a witch at some point in his life, for him to several times been in terrific form and the brink of England recognition only to immediately get injured. I'm assuming it's serious enough to rule him out of the tour as a whole, given that he's down as flat-out not-considered rather than rehab. Poor sod

The most likely additions would be:

Bath: T. Hill, Underhill, Pepper, Barbeary, Spencer, Ojomoh, Muir and Donoghue (Ewels and Butt could also be possibles)

Tigers: Heyes, JvP, Hassell-Collins and Steward (Woodward and Radwan as possibles)

Also worth noting George and AOF are currently training with the Lions but not joining the tour squad.

As I see it, the most likely substitutions for the tour squad are:

George for Oghre
Heyes for Davison
AOF for Kloska
T. Hill for Capstick
Underhill for Pearson or Kenningham
Spencer for Porter
JvP for Bracken
Donoghue for C. Atkinson
Ojomoh for Northmore or S. Atkinson

Steward as an addition rather than a replacement.

Personally, I really don’t think IFW should tour. I’d give his spot to Hassell-Collins or Radwan.

Agreed on your predictions, although I do wonder about Underhill. Back when I was under the misapprehension that the France XV game was this weekend, I had assumed that it would not count towards his ban and therefore he would be ineligible for the first Arg test, and if that's the case, then there's no point in taking him. Since finding out I was wrong, I'm now wondering if World Rugby will let him count that both one and the final, if England aren't playing any other players from Bath/Leicester in the France XV game. I suspect it will come down to how good his lawyer is.

I also think Donoghue might come in for one of the other centres or Slade (if he's counted as 10 cover). Shoots Broadsides won't need 6 centres, surely, so if this training is to winnow them down, it might be one of them that loses out. I'd rather lose CAtkinson than SAtkinson, but hopefully the training week will give Badenoch the chance to see the latter's quality. I do mostly IBWT on selection and, especially with Vesty there, if SAtkinson has a week to show what he can do and is thereafter dropped, then one has to conclude that there's something wrong that we lay folk aren't seeing.

Radwan/OHC're actually unlucky that Leicester reached the final, as otherwise one of them would've had the same opportunity for a week's audition while Roebuck was busy. I don't see them getting in now.

I continue to believe that PBB should be getting a look

The question is the same as for Radwan/OHC - for whom? It's not like there's an obvious plodder to replace - if we're taking the Arg tests seriously and IFW and Sleightholme are genuinely fit (and I see no reason to believe they're not), then who do you not pick out of them, Roebuck, and Murley? A good problem to have, mind, but for the next 5-10 years, I think we're going to have some truly special wings not getting a look-in.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

[Banquo]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

Ollie Sleightholme is fckin quick, thought you’d want him in. Freeman has to be starting at 13 for saints next season, or maybe the Lions will help fulfil your dream….

[Danno]

I wouldn't discard Murley so quickly, he's strong, as fast as anyone else, has a hell of a nose for the line and has had a taste of international rugby. Plus, as I've said before, he looks like he's having the time of his life if he's got the ball in some space.

[Puja]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

To my mind, on domestic performances. you can make an equal case for OHC or Radwan or Roebuck or Sleightholme or Murley. All of them have excelled and been dangerous in the Prem and Europe and it's very hard to pick them apart - Roebuck's better in the air but slower, Radwan's fastest but less physical, Sleightholme's fast and pinballs off tackles when carrying but weaker in defensive alignment, Murley's weaker under the high ball but lightning fast and elusive.

The only one that has any kind of advantage is Sleightholme, as he has successfully brought his attacking quality to the international level, against first-tier teams, but even that's not exactly definitive. I'm amazed that you can confidently separate out two players as being the ones that won't make it!

PBB looks good and promising, but for me he's not shown any level of talent that the others don't also possess, and he also is in his first season of first team rugby (and hasn't played any European or playoff rugby) - if we didn't have the massive queue of talent already waiting for an opportunity, then I wouldn't turn him down for that, but as we do, I'm perfectly happy to say he needs to show he's not just a flash in the pan before we'll consider him.

Puja

[Banquo]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

Ps frankly puzzled as you have PBB - playing champ rugby til mid season- ahead of the body of work of both Murley and Sleightholme who have been excellent over a long period.
I’m sure ceiling will come into the answer, but why? I’d also say that Radwan and OHC would still be in or below their bracket despite recent good form #helps that tigers are in good nick.

[Banquo]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

To my mind, on domestic performances. you can make an equal case for OHC or Radwan or Roebuck or Sleightholme or Murley. All of them have excelled and been dangerous in the Prem and Europe and it's very hard to pick them apart - Roebuck's better in the air but slower, Radwan's fastest but less physical, Sleightholme's fast and pinballs off tackles when carrying but weaker in defensive alignment, Murley's weaker under the high ball but lightning fast and elusive.

The only one that has any kind of advantage is Sleightholme, as he has successfully brought his attacking quality to the international level, against first-tier teams, but even that's not exactly definitive. I'm amazed that you can confidently separate out two players as being the ones that won't make it!

PBB looks good and promising, but for me he's not shown any level of talent that the others don't also possess, and he also is in his first season of first team rugby (and hasn't played any European or playoff rugby) - if we didn't have the massive queue of talent already waiting for an opportunity, then I wouldn't turn him down for that, but as we do, I'm perfectly happy to say he needs to show he's not just a flash in the pan before we'll consider him.

Puja

Yus

[Mikey Brown]

I don't think Murley and Sleightholme are likely to be near the first choice 23 looking mid to long-term. I'd have all of IFW, Roebuck, Radwan, PBB and OHC ahead of them. Freeman would be as well, of course, though I think his long-term position is 13.

Ps frankly puzzled as you have PBB - playing champ rugby til mid season- ahead of the body of work of both Murley and Sleightholme who have been excellent over a long period.
I’m sure ceiling will come into the answer, but why? I’d also say that Radwan and OHC would still be in or below their bracket despite recent good form #helps that tigers are in good nick.

This got a good laugh.

Agreed PBB looks exciting, but it’s a handful of performances and we’ve not seen him targeted in any way yet.