Argentina tour

[Beasties]

Pepper should start the first test at 6 for me. Given how we’ve lined up in the 6N to good success, Pepper at 6 offering a third lineout option plus BCurry at 7 is the best continuity. Willis obviously at 8. Would have Ilione on the bench with Underhill and Ted Hill.

I thought TDG was excellent today. Far superior to Steward who looks incredibly limited now his super strength is being negated by people getting to him in the air now.

Heyes had a good game which was nice to see, he’s starting to get near his prime as a prop and would be great to see him kick on like Stuart.

Those championing Radwan probably saw why he won’t be picking as he tried and failed miserably to put down Pepper…

Chat GPT confirms this wasn’t jngf.

[Danno]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

[Banquo]

My thought on this is that we were absolutely at our best under Borthwick this 6N when we deployed two opensides or at best one openside and one 6.5. The time before that we were at our best was at the 2019 World Cup with the same.

We have an absolute abundance of 6.5s/7s and should be tailoring a game plan accordingly. Playing CCS or Hill at 6 is a big departure from that set up. We should not be getting ourselves into a position whereby Tcurry is first choice 6 but the minute he’s injured or needs a rest, we completely change backrow balance. Pepper and Ilione for me both look like serious 6 options behind TCurry (lineout, breakdown, reasonable tight carrying) with BCurry, Earl, Underhill and Pollock at 7.

If the height of your ambition is looking good in the 6n while finishing second fine. But imo we need more carrying or a point of difference up front. Both Pepper and Ilione have spent most of their time as 7’s as far as I can tell, with a balancing 6 and 8.

We don’t have a big carrying 6 outside of CCS who doesn’t do the nuts and bolts of a back rower well enough.

Ted Hill barely carries the ball and certainly doesn’t do so in the tight.

So we make use of what we have. Tcurry 6, pollock 7, Willis 8 looks the way forward for me. I assume that would have enough carrying and point of difference.

We’d still have no-one to back up TCurry at 6 if we limit ourselves to not picking players who play 7 for their clubs.

So we need a look at Pepper and or Ilione to play at 6 if we want a continued dual threat at the breakdown.

Exactly what are these nuts and bolts CCS doesn’t do? Seems odd he’s managed to become an established international and prem player without them?
You’ll note I said carrying OR a point of difference- Ted Hill has a distinct point of difference.
IF you want to play two opensides that’s up to you. Not for me, esp if you want to beat the likes of SA.

[Beasties]

The eternal debate.
I’m happy we’ve got loads of quality options now.
I’m not comfortable with Chessum at 6 as an answer though.

[Mikey Brown]

At least we can agree Pollock has the 7 shirt sewn up.

[Puja]

The eternal debate.
I’m happy we’ve got loads of quality options now.
I’m not comfortable with Chessum at 6 as an answer though.

Agreed - we've got TCurry, BCurry, Underhill, Earl, Pollock, Kenningham, CCS, Pepper, Pearson, Ilione that we somehow have to fit into two flank positions and we're still talking about using one of them on a lock?

Puja

[Banquo]

The eternal debate.
I’m happy we’ve got loads of quality options now.
I’m not comfortable with Chessum at 6 as an answer though.

Agreed - we've got TCurry, BCurry, Underhill, Earl, Pollock, Kenningham, CCS, Pepper, Pearson, Ilione that we somehow have to fit into two flank positions and we're still talking about using one of them on a lock?

Puja

Yus. Tho CCS is a apparently a lock now, confusingly

[Beasties]

The eternal debate.
I’m happy we’ve got loads of quality options now.
I’m not comfortable with Chessum at 6 as an answer though.

Agreed - we've got TCurry, BCurry, Underhill, Earl, Pollock, Kenningham, CCS, Pepper, Pearson, Ilione that we somehow have to fit into two flank positions and we're still talking about using one of them on a lock?

Puja

Yus. Tho CCS is a apparently a lock now, confusingly

Nobody likes a smart rse.

[Danno]

Everyone loves a second/back row hybrid though apparently

[Puja]

The eternal debate.
I’m happy we’ve got loads of quality options now.
I’m not comfortable with Chessum at 6 as an answer though.

Agreed - we've got TCurry, BCurry, Underhill, Earl, Pollock, Kenningham, CCS, Pepper, Pearson, Ilione that we somehow have to fit into two flank positions and we're still talking about using one of them on a lock?

Puja

Yus. Tho CCS is a apparently a lock now, confusingly

When we have a list of locks as long and promising as that list of flankers, I promise I'll stop trying to shove him there!

Puja

[Banquo]

Agreed - we've got TCurry, BCurry, Underhill, Earl, Pollock, Kenningham, CCS, Pepper, Pearson, Ilione that we somehow have to fit into two flank positions and we're still talking about using one of them on a lock?

Puja

Yus. Tho CCS is a apparently a lock now, confusingly

When we have a list of locks as long and promising as that list of flankers, I promise I'll stop trying to shove him there!

Puja

....see Marcus Smith

[jngf]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

Without getting too geeky, Chat GPT has reached the point where its perspective ( namely the statistical average of much of what’s ever been published about rugby) increasingly make it a reasonable source of objective reference e.g. a few years back it would get the Curry twins playing styles completely mixed up now it’s really a lot, lot better. It doesn’t actually have the affordance of ‘lying’ as such as despite what the hype cycle and a few less informed on this believe, it really isn’t built to be in any way cognitively sentient.

[FKAS]

Yus. Tho CCS is a apparently a lock now, confusingly

When we have a list of locks as long and promising as that list of flankers, I promise I'll stop trying to shove him there!

Puja

....see Marcus Smith

I know there's a general theme of trying to crowbar Marcus Smith into any team of at all possible but it might be pushing it for him to be selected at lock.

Quite like the idea of CCS in the 19 shirt. He was good in that role in the 6N. Offers us impact off the bench as well. Ted Hill might be able to offer something similar if CCS is injured.

If we start with;

Baxter, George, Heyes
Clark, Coles
B Curry, Willis, Pepper

Then - Langdon, Ioygen/Rodd, AOF/Fasogbon, CCS, Pearson/Ilione (an openside that can carry)

Should hopefully help give us some decent bench impact we've not always had under Borthwick.

Incidentally someone on the Tigers offy says they asked Ilione about where he thinks his position will be and he said he's put on some extra weight to help with his carrying and to allow him play at 8 as well as 7.

[Danno]

We've got players coming through that will be utter terrors off the bench in a season or two, I'm quite excited to see it. No-one is going to be happy seeing Tuipolotou, Baxter, AOF, CCS, Pollock, Ilione, a Smith and Radwan, among other options, hitting the field around the 60 minute mark - except us

Probably belongs in the England thread but I'm too lazy to move it now

[Puja]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

Without getting too geeky, Chat GPT has reached the point where its perspective ( namely the statistical average of much of what’s ever been published about rugby) increasingly make it a reasonable source of objective reference e.g. a few years back it would get the Curry twins playing styles completely mixed up now it’s really a lot, lot better. It doesn’t actually have the affordance of ‘lying’ as such as despite what the hype cycle and a few less informed on this believe, it really isn’t built to be in any way cognitively sentient.

Chat GPT has not got a perspective. It's a language model that works out the most likely word to put next to the last one. It doesn't *know* or *understand* anything - it's just creating sentences that are statistically plausible. The fact that those sentences are quite often factually true doesn't mean that it is a reliable source of information, because it's not designed to give you a correct answer, it's designed to give you a correct-sounding answer and those two things are sometimes very drastically not the same thing.

As such, using it as a "source of objective reference" is frankly risible.

Puja

[Danno]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

Without getting too geeky, Chat GPT has reached the point where its perspective ( namely the statistical average of much of what’s ever been published about rugby) increasingly make it a reasonable source of objective reference e.g. a few years back it would get the Curry twins playing styles completely mixed up now it’s really a lot, lot better. It doesn’t actually have the affordance of ‘lying’ as such as despite what the hype cycle and a few less informed on this believe, it really isn’t built to be in any way cognitively sentient.

Chat GPT has not got a perspective. It's a language model that works out the most likely word to put next to the last one. It doesn't *know* or *understand* anything - it's just creating sentences that are statistically plausible. The fact that those sentences are quite often factually true doesn't mean that it is a reliable source of information, because it's not designed to give you a correct answer, it's designed to give you a correct-sounding answer and those two things are sometimes very drastically not the same thing.

As such, using it as a "source of objective reference" is frankly risible.

Puja

Quite. And the thing that worries me most is that Google has taken a very visible backwards step that Chagpt, Gemini etc are only too willing to fill with complete churn from every section of the Internet- and people are using it as a valid source of information.

We've never seen public information manipulated before....Russia must be wetting themselves.

[Banquo]

When we have a list of locks as long and promising as that list of flankers, I promise I'll stop trying to shove him there!

Puja

....see Marcus Smith

I know there's a general theme of trying to crowbar Marcus Smith into any team of at all possible but it might be pushing it for him to be selected at lock.

Oh? I really think he has nuts and bolts sorted for lock

[Danno]

....see Marcus Smith

I know there's a general theme of trying to crowbar Marcus Smith into any team of at all possible but it might be pushing it for him to be selected at lock.

Oh? I really think he has nuts and bolts sorted for lock

Nuts and bolts perhaps, but I think he needs a bit of scaffolding

[Epaminondas Pules]

Chat GPT is a lying piece of shit though

Without getting too geeky, Chat GPT has reached the point where its perspective ( namely the statistical average of much of what’s ever been published about rugby) increasingly make it a reasonable source of objective reference e.g. a few years back it would get the Curry twins playing styles completely mixed up now it’s really a lot, lot better. It doesn’t actually have the affordance of ‘lying’ as such as despite what the hype cycle and a few less informed on this believe, it really isn’t built to be in any way cognitively sentient.

Guy Pepper is a back-row forward who primarily plays as an openside flanker (No. 7) for Bath Rugby. At 6ft 3in and 105kg, he brings a unique blend of size, agility, and breakdown expertise to the position. His ability to win turnovers, make crucial tackles, and contribute to attacking play has drawn comparisons to the legendary Richie McCaw .

Pepper's performances at Bath have solidified his reputation as one of England's most promising openside flankers. He has represented England at U18, U20, and A levels, and was called up to train with the senior squad during the 2024 Six Nations . His consistent form has made him a strong contender for future international honours.

Given his skill set and potential, Guy Pepper is best suited to play as an openside flanker for the England rugby team.

[Mikey Brown]

I think Guy Pepper is looking very impressive, not sure on his 2 MOTM calls though he was definitely up there, but I don’t know that I’d pick him ahead of Hill at 6 right now either.

[SixAndAHalf]

Squad has been named for the France game with key omissions appearing to be BCurry and Dingwall (rested?) plus Fasogbon. Good to see Ojomoh and SAtkinson in there.

[SixAndAHalf]

Full squad for reference (Dingwall and BCurry on the rehab list):

FORWARDS
Fin Baxter (Harlequins)

Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)

Alex Coles (Northampton Saints)

Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins)

Theo Dan (Saracens)

Trevor Davison (Northampton Saints)

Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)*

Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)

Ted Hill (Bath Rugby)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)

Manny Iyogun (Northampton Saints)

Jack Kenningham (Harlequins)

Curtis Langdon (Northampton Saints)

Asher Opoku-Fordjour (Sale Sharks)*

Guy Pepper (Bath Rugby)

Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks)

Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Tom Willis (Saracens)

BACKS
Charlie Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)

Seb Atkinson (Gloucester Rugby)

Oscar Beard (Harlequins)

Joe Carpenter (Sale Sharks)

Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs)

George Ford (Sale Sharks)

Will Muir (Bath Rugby)

Cadan Murley (Harlequins)

Luke Northmore (Harlequins)

Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby)

Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)

Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby)

Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)

Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers)

Rehabilitation: Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears). Not considered for selection: Joe Batley (Bristol Bears), Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), George Martin (Leicester Tigers), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton

[Mikey Brown]

I wonder what the deal is with Sleightholme. I was assuming in-camp rehab group is much shorter term injuries, but he’s in the ‘not considered’ group.

[Puja]

I wonder what the deal is with Sleightholme. I was assuming in-camp rehab group is much shorter term injuries, but he’s in the ‘not considered’ group.

Maybe they or he have taken the attitude that he's better taking the summer to rest and get a full pre-season in. Be oddly forward thinking if they have.

Probably more likely that he's come back too soon and tweaked it again though.

Puja

ETA. Yeahhh: https://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/spor ... ur-5178675

[Danno]

Quelle surprise