Snap General Election called

[Son of Mathonwy]

Another major u turn. At this rate Starmer won’t last to the next GE. Of labour MPs do perform a mutiny, the obvious benefactor is reform.

After the years of conservatives disorder, the key selling point of Starmer was that he would be competent. The last few months have been anything but.

The obvious benefactor of a mutiny is the Labour party and the chance of avoiding a far-right future. Unless you think Starmer is doing a good job of keeping Reform down?

Agreed, Starmer is running things badly. He needs to go.

[Sandydragon]

Another major u turn. At this rate Starmer won’t last to the next GE. Of labour MPs do perform a mutiny, the obvious benefactor is reform.

After the years of conservatives disorder, the key selling point of Starmer was that he would be competent. The last few months have been anything but.

The obvious benefactor of a mutiny is the Labour party and the chance of avoiding a far-right future. Unless you think Starmer is doing a good job of keeping Reform down?

Agreed, Starmer is running things badly. He needs to go.

That’s optimistic. Labour got a lot of floating voters last time who may well not bother this time round. Labour suddenly turning well to the left won’t win them the next election. We’ve seen how that story plays out with even the worst campaign in Tory history beating them.

Clearly there is a disconnect between the government and its MPs which needs to be resolved soon. If they can’t govern properly then they too will be toast.

[Puja]

Another major u turn. At this rate Starmer won’t last to the next GE. Of labour MPs do perform a mutiny, the obvious benefactor is reform.

After the years of conservatives disorder, the key selling point of Starmer was that he would be competent. The last few months have been anything but.

The obvious benefactor of a mutiny is the Labour party and the chance of avoiding a far-right future. Unless you think Starmer is doing a good job of keeping Reform down?

Agreed, Starmer is running things badly. He needs to go.

That’s optimistic. Labour got a lot of floating voters last time who may well not bother this time round. Labour suddenly turning well to the left won’t win them the next election. We’ve seen how that story plays out with even the worst campaign in Tory history beating them.

Clearly there is a disconnect between the government and its MPs which needs to be resolved soon. If they can’t govern properly then they too will be toast.

Alternately, it got them a 40% share of the vote, despite an incredibly polarising leader whom the government, papers, television, and other media continually traduced as a terrorist sympathiser and threat to national security. Good argument to be made that left wing ideas* could've been very successful with a less controversial leader, especially one more competent at leadership instead of protest. In comparison, Labour's "Just slightly left of the Tories, but only just" routine got them 33% and, as you said, a chunk of those won't bother next time.

I wouldn't have said that the disconnect between the government and the MPs is a problem with the MPs. They can reasonably say that their constituents didn't vote for them (especially with a national platform of "Change!"), for them to support further austerity and demonising of the disabled.

Puja


*Also, the movement of the Overton window means that "well to the left" now covers an awful lot of ground that would've been safely centre back in the 2000s.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Another major u turn. At this rate Starmer won’t last to the next GE. Of labour MPs do perform a mutiny, the obvious benefactor is reform.

After the years of conservatives disorder, the key selling point of Starmer was that he would be competent. The last few months have been anything but.

The obvious benefactor of a mutiny is the Labour party and the chance of avoiding a far-right future. Unless you think Starmer is doing a good job of keeping Reform down?

Agreed, Starmer is running things badly. He needs to go.

That’s optimistic. Labour got a lot of floating voters last time who may well not bother this time round. Labour suddenly turning well to the left won’t win them the next election. We’ve seen how that story plays out with even the worst campaign in Tory history beating them.

Clearly there is a disconnect between the government and its MPs which needs to be resolved soon. If they can’t govern properly then they too will be toast.

Just checking, you think that it would be better for Starmer to stay than not, despite rapidly losing 10% in the polling, dropping 7% behind Reform, and looking like losing control of his party despite a massive majority and the fact that many of them are handpicked, non-lefty newcomers?

As for your conviction that a left-wing campaign is doomed to failure from the start, I don't expect to convince you but I'll have a go anyway .
Corbyn got more votes than Starmer both times. The difference in the outcome was because the right-wing vote was split (because the Tories had had another 5 years to destroy their reputation and Reform decided to take them on).That's it.

This does not require a dramatic turn to the left (although I'd argue for it) but it does require a noticeable one. Starmer stood on a campaign for change and all we've had is a continuation of Tory policy and thinking. If the people don't see a change in approach, they'll continue to look for one and in 2029 will take Farage's bullshit, far-right approach because at least it appears to offer change.

[Puja]

Wes Streeting has abruptly come out of nowhere to respond to a question about the Israeli embassy's criticism of Glastonbury with, "No-one should glorify violence, but I would also say to the Israeli embassy to 'Get your own house in order'," before going on to describe violent Israeli settlers in the West Bank as terrorists, calling on Israel to condemn them, and describing their attacks as "wanton acts of terrorism and violence" that "have got to stop". Not brave enough to criticise the IDF yet, but it's still a hell of a statement from a cabinet minister.

I doubt he's happened to watch Louis Theroux and change his mind, nor do I believe he was visited by the ghost of atrocities past overnight and discovered a conscience. Combine this with him speaking in favour of the weakening to the welfare bill the other day, and I reckon he's starting the manouevring for a leadership bid if the bill fails/passes solely through Tories and Starmer is left in a quiet room with a single bullet and a pistol.

Also, Wes Streeting is a grade A cunt with even fewer morals or convictions than Starmer, so I really hope he doesn't win any putative leadership race, but it's interesting seeing that the buzzards have begun circling the corpse already.

Puja

[Banquo]

Also, Wes Streeting is a grade A cunt with even fewer morals or convictions than Starmer, so I really hope he doesn't win any putative leadership race, but it's interesting seeing that the buzzards have begun circling the corpse already.

Puja

What brought on this even handed kind view ?

[Puja]

Also, Wes Streeting is a grade A cunt with even fewer morals or convictions than Starmer, so I really hope he doesn't win any putative leadership race, but it's interesting seeing that the buzzards have begun circling the corpse already.

Puja

What brought on this even handed kind view ?

Observation.

Puja

[Banquo]

Also, Wes Streeting is a grade A cunt with even fewer morals or convictions than Starmer, so I really hope he doesn't win any putative leadership race, but it's interesting seeing that the buzzards have begun circling the corpse already.

Puja

What brought on this even handed kind view ?

Observation.

Puja

Fair enough- he just seems the nearest to competence in the govt. Low fckin bar to be fair.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Wes Streeting has abruptly come out of nowhere to respond to a question about the Israeli embassy's criticism of Glastonbury with, "No-one should glorify violence, but I would also say to the Israeli embassy to 'Get your own house in order'," before going on to describe violent Israeli settlers in the West Bank as terrorists, calling on Israel to condemn them, and describing their attacks as "wanton acts of terrorism and violence" that "have got to stop". Not brave enough to criticise the IDF yet, but it's still a hell of a statement from a cabinet minister.

I doubt he's happened to watch Louis Theroux and change his mind, nor do I believe he was visited by the ghost of atrocities past overnight and discovered a conscience. Combine this with him speaking in favour of the weakening to the welfare bill the other day, and I reckon he's starting the manouevring for a leadership bid if the bill fails/passes solely through Tories and Starmer is left in a quiet room with a single bullet and a pistol.

Also, Wes Streeting is a grade A cunt with even fewer morals or convictions than Starmer, so I really hope he doesn't win any putative leadership race, but it's interesting seeing that the buzzards have begun circling the corpse already.

Puja

Well spotted. Unlikely that there's any conviction behind those words. A vote for Streeting is a vote for the same, or even more right-wing.

[Puja]

What brought on this even handed kind view ?

Observation.

Puja

Fair enough- he just seems the nearest to competence in the govt. Low fckin bar to be fair.

Ah - hadn't realised it was a genuine question. He's funded by a lot of private health interests and regularly seeks advice and "expert opinion" from people who advocate for outsourcing in the NHS (including Alan Milburn, who was the father of PFIs and foundation trusts, who probably coincidentally has since become very wealthy from his post-government job at PWC's ‘health industries oversight board'). He talked up "a mandate for change" with the NHS previous to the election, which has turned out to be a plan for more outsourcing and PFIs.

He also blows with the prevailing political winds on beliefs - he's previously spoken in favour of trans rights, banning conversion therapy, immigration, nationalisation, removing the child benefit cap, and redistributive taxes, only to backtrack on all of those positions when politically expedient. It's notable that he's continually sent out as the administration's nodding dog to explain why their latest change of tack is actually what they were planning to do all along.

In short, I don't care for him.

If picking who I'd want to be leader amongst this lot (out of the actually plausible options), I'd probably support Rayner. She's very far from perfect, but she at least actually has some convictions, even if she has been hiding them for the last year or so.

Puja

[Banquo]

Observation.

Puja

Fair enough- he just seems the nearest to competence in the govt. Low fckin bar to be fair.

Ah - hadn't realised it was a genuine question. He's funded by a lot of private health interests and regularly seeks advice and "expert opinion" from people who advocate for outsourcing in the NHS (including Alan Milburn, who was the father of PFIs and foundation trusts, who probably coincidentally has since become very wealthy from his post-government job at PWC's ‘health industries oversight board'). He talked up "a mandate for change" with the NHS previous to the election, which has turned out to be a plan for more outsourcing and PFIs.

He also blows with the prevailing political winds on beliefs - he's previously spoken in favour of trans rights, banning conversion therapy, immigration, nationalisation, removing the child benefit cap, and redistributive taxes, only to backtrack on all of those positions when politically expedient. It's notable that he's continually sent out as the administration's nodding dog to explain why their latest change of tack is actually what they were planning to do all along.

In short, I don't care for him.

If picking who I'd want to be leader amongst this lot (out of the actually plausible options), I'd probably support Rayner. She's very far from perfect, but she at least actually has some convictions, even if she has been hiding them for the last year or so.

Puja

Right you are. So, basically, he's a modern politician gawd help us. I'll leave Rayner to you

[Puja]

Right you are. So, basically, he's a modern politician gawd help us. I'll leave Rayner to you

Indeed - a valuesless, empty-suit, weathervane of a man. The perfect heir to Starmer.

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

Looks like Labour's Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment bill is running into big trouble . The amendment which will stop it has 123 signatories so far (even if the amendment isn't selected by the speaker, at least these 123 will presumably rebel). Starmer may need Badenoch to get him over the line - God helps us - but that would demonstrate exactly where Labour is right now, politically and morally.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ion-by-mps
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/ ... -cuts-bill
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w48zlw04po

Worst case scenario: Starmer and Badenoch join forces to get the bill through, Reform vote against, Farage acting hero of the downtrodden - and Labour sinks even further behind them in the polls. Farage wins in 2029 and does not reverse this legislation.

Concession: everyone currently on benefits are exempt from the changes.

I really hope they still rebel. What kind of concession is this? The problem is not the particular disabled people affected - it's that the changes are cruel and unfair. They're cruel and unfair, no matter which disabled people they affect, those today or those who become disabled in future (or simply become old enough to make the claim). In fact this would be more unfair because one group would get the benefits and an equally deserving group would not. What kind of system is that? Okay, this move would save 400k or so people now but more than that number would be denied by the end of parliament. Frankly, that this is the supposed solution just shows how ethically challenged Starmer & Co are. They'll buy off this lot but smash the rungs of the ladder beneath them.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... win-rebels

Starmer essentially sacrificed the bill - removing all the PIP elements - to save himself from personal disaster. But it was still a total shambles and very weak. Hopefully the MPs will force him to behave more like a Labour leader going forward. I'd like to think McSweeney or Reeves would get the boot over this but I won't hold my breath.

[Banquo]

Looks like Labour's Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment bill is running into big trouble . The amendment which will stop it has 123 signatories so far (even if the amendment isn't selected by the speaker, at least these 123 will presumably rebel). Starmer may need Badenoch to get him over the line - God helps us - but that would demonstrate exactly where Labour is right now, politically and morally.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ion-by-mps
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/ ... -cuts-bill
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3w48zlw04po

Worst case scenario: Starmer and Badenoch join forces to get the bill through, Reform vote against, Farage acting hero of the downtrodden - and Labour sinks even further behind them in the polls. Farage wins in 2029 and does not reverse this legislation.

Concession: everyone currently on benefits are exempt from the changes.

I really hope they still rebel. What kind of concession is this? The problem is not the particular disabled people affected - it's that the changes are cruel and unfair. They're cruel and unfair, no matter which disabled people they affect, those today or those who become disabled in future (or simply become old enough to make the claim). In fact this would be more unfair because one group would get the benefits and an equally deserving group would not. What kind of system is that? Okay, this move would save 400k or so people now but more than that number would be denied by the end of parliament. Frankly, that this is the supposed solution just shows how ethically challenged Starmer & Co are. They'll buy off this lot but smash the rungs of the ladder beneath them.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... win-rebels

Starmer essentially sacrificed the bill - removing all the PIP elements - to save himself from personal disaster. But it was still a total shambles and very weak. Hopefully the MPs will force him to behave more like a Labour leader going forward. I'd like to think McSweeney or Reeves would get the boot over this but I won't hold my breath.

Just being a leader would be a start. He needs to stop being the international statesmen of no real value and start looking out for those who voted him in.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Parliament resoundingly votes through the proscription of Palestine Action as a terrorist organisation. Including my MP. And so nonviolent protest is suppressed further. They're taking legal action but I doubt that'll do anything more than delay things.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rist-group

I don't really understand how this works for the people running the group. Could they just rename it? Could they start up another group and have all the PA members joint that? Or are they effectively banned from running any protest group for the Palestinian cause?

[Puja]

Parliament resoundingly votes through the proscription of Palestine Action as a terrorist organisation. Including my MP. And so nonviolent protest is suppressed further. They're taking legal action but I doubt that'll do anything more than delay things.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rist-group

I don't really understand how this works for the people running the group. Could they just rename it? Could they start up another group and have all the PA members joint that? Or are they effectively banned from running any protest group for the Palestinian cause?

The Hansard records are interesting: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... fTerrorism

Puja

[Puja]

Zarah Sultana to set up a new left wing party with Corbyn and other independents/socialists: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyel9kgdvdo

It's desperately needed to fill the political gap that Labour are leaving, and will potentially acquire a number of disaffected Labour MPs like Whittome and Long-Bailey, but I'm curious as to why they didn't wait to see if Polanski won the Green leadership. Or maybe the idea that Green as a brand is seen as too staid and unelectable?

Puja

[Danno]

And Scamdalf has shot down the idea saying he knew nothing about it. As left leaning circular firing squads go this is some sort of record.

[Son of Mathonwy]

And Scamdalf has shot down the idea saying he knew nothing about it. As left leaning circular firing squads go this is some sort of record.

Scamdalf? Haven't heard that one before.

[Son of Mathonwy]

Zarah Sultana to set up a new left wing party with Corbyn and other independents/socialists: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyel9kgdvdo

It's desperately needed to fill the political gap that Labour are leaving, and will potentially acquire a number of disaffected Labour MPs like Whittome and Long-Bailey, but I'm curious as to why they didn't wait to see if Polanski won the Green leadership. Or maybe the idea that Green as a brand is seen as too staid and unelectable?

Puja

I imagine that Long-Bailey and the other left-wing MPs who still have the Labour whip will stay where they are. While it makes sense for purged MPs and independents to form a new party, such a thing has very little chance of making a national impact*. Labour MPs on the left will mostly stay where they are, biding their time otherwise there's no chance that the next Labour leader will be left-wing.


* unless it merged with the Greens, perhaps, but there seems to be no hope of this because (unfortunately) the Greens don't seem to want anyone to know that they're left-wing.

[Puja]

Zarah Sultana to set up a new left wing party with Corbyn and other independents/socialists: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwyel9kgdvdo

It's desperately needed to fill the political gap that Labour are leaving, and will potentially acquire a number of disaffected Labour MPs like Whittome and Long-Bailey, but I'm curious as to why they didn't wait to see if Polanski won the Green leadership. Or maybe the idea that Green as a brand is seen as too staid and unelectable?

Puja

I imagine that Long-Bailey and the other left-wing MPs who still have the Labour whip will stay where they are. While it makes sense for purged MPs and independents to form a new party, such a thing has very little chance of making a national impact*. Labour MPs on the left will mostly stay where they are, biding their time otherwise there's no chance that the next Labour leader will be left-wing.


* unless it merged with the Greens, perhaps, but there seems to be no hope of this because (unfortunately) the Greens don't seem to want anyone to know that they're left-wing.

Good point - although I wonder at what point they consider they might not be able to turn the behemoth around. Starmer's certainly worked hard enough to prevent it by handpicking MP candidates, blocking socialists from being selected, and changing the internal mechanisms to give the best chance of avoiding a change of tack.

And Scamdalf has shot down the idea saying he knew nothing about it. As left leaning circular firing squads go this is some sort of record.

Sounds like Sultana has properly fucked up. I'm sure it was planned as being a big announcement, front-page news, an immediate press release with details of the MPs who would be joining, and statements of intent about what they planned to do with this, but instead it's become a beggar's muddle that's been overshadowed by Jota's death and Reeves crying. Now Corbyn's got to decide if he backs up Sultana and eschews a big, organised reveal, or if he keeps his head down and offers vague platitudes about cooperation between independents until the dust settles. McDonnell's wished her luck but said he won't be joining, which probably suggests the latter.

Either way, I think she's stitched up her chances of being leader of this putative new party!

Puja

[Son of Mathonwy]

This is great - bringing back Sure Start after Tories and LibDems scrapped it. But it's such an obvious good thing to do, why didn't it happen straight after the election last year? These things take time to have an impact, so why waste a year?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... phillipson

[Danno]

Because they're utterly clueless, to be blunt.

[Son of Mathonwy]

The next worry is that Labour will go after special needs kids in their desperate search for revenue from disadvantaged groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ttee-chair

[Puja]

The next worry is that Labour will go after special needs kids in their desperate search for revenue from disadvantaged groups.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ttee-chair

Heavens forfend that we look at plugging the tax gap with the billions made by the richest over the pandemic.

Puja