Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 10:19 am
I thought Freeman had a few good carries, but it felt more like a forward cleaning up scraps than any particularly decent attacking ball. Not really sure what his instructions are but doesn’t seem to be getting (himself) in the game all that much.
Lowe seems to be getting quite a few touches, and creating 1 miracle ball for every 4 or 5 stutter-steps in to the first defender.
I honestly don’t know what would happen simply by dropping Hansen in for Freeman.
Kinghorn made everything look so much more threatening when he came on though.
Farrell likes his wingers to get involved across the pitch. That just doesn't appear to be Freeman's game. That also seems to be why Farrell loves Hansen. I think my view from watching the match rather than looking at stats was that Freeman didn't produce an ounce of threat, whereas Lowe did whilst not playing at all well, and if you've got a winger who over 2 tests hasn't produced an ounce of threat I'd replace them.
I agree with you on what Farrell likes, but I think you are slightly mischaracterising Freeman. I see him as a good carrier who does get involved (see his pick and go in the leadup to one of the tries (maybe Beirne's)). The big issue, as you, identify, has been the lack of threat, which seems a bit strange given his try scoring record this season. Lowe and Hansen are just a bit more imaginative and liable to produce the unexpected.
Anyway, I think Kinghorn showed what can be achieved with a bit of proper pace. I can see why Farrell likes other qualities in his wingers, but I think out and out pace out wide has been conspicious by its absence all tour.
I'll agree with this, plus add in that Freeman at Saints gets involved a lot more- though given paucity of possession and back action in the last test, I'd posit his involvement was more than respectable. IMO he did threaten the defence a fair bit given the number of tacklers he took with him on each carry in the 22 (4 I think). Because yes, I did watch and re-watch the match, and not just look at stats; tho the stats do say he touched the ball as much as either centre...so can also draw some conclusions on that. too
Perhaps we need to define threat? Do you mean making solo runs and being hauled down near the line or scoring? Or what?
Bottom line is neither test winger has really offered enough so far. Both honest hard workers, sure, but aside from the odd flash here and there, whether that's a run that draws in defenders or an offload, threats from both have been few and far between. I'd say that probably fits AF limited game plan. Hansen has more about him usually, although its been absent from the tour so far. VdM is also quite a limited winger, although if your game plan is as limited as AFs game plans are there's no reason he can't fit in.
Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
Bottom line is neither test winger has really offered enough so far. Both honest hard workers, sure, but aside from the odd flash here and there, whether that's a run that draws in defenders or an offload, threats from both have been few and far between. I'd say that probably fits AF limited game plan. Hansen has more about him usually, although its been absent from the tour so far. VdM is also quite a limited winger, although if your game plan is as limited as AFs game plans are there's no reason he can't fit in.
Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
grudging half agreement, though Freeman scores tries for fun for club and country. Lots of folks think he may be better at 13 (or even 15)....certainly his carrying and ball skills may get more useage there.
As you say, some mitigation in that AF hasn't brought an expansive game to the tests. and also how little ball we had in the 2nd test for an hour. TBH I'm not really sure what folks expected to see from the wings in the context of both game plan and how the matches have panned out....though both could easily have been canned after the 1st test- Lowe had an utter lionel, and Tommy had some very shoddy moments.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
..Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
Feel a bit for the Test wingers, Freeman in particular runs in tries for fun apart from his wider involvement.
AF goes for narrow multi-phase stuff with well drilled moves, which brings less risk but generally less espansive.
Wingers as big as back-rowers who can field well and are defensively sound are where we're at with current rules and stats. dominance.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
..Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
Feel a bit for the Test wingers, Freeman in particular runs in tries for fun apart from his wider involvement.
AF goes for narrow multi-phase stuff with well drilled moves, which brings less risk but generally less espansive.
Wingers as big as back-rowers who can field well and are defensively sound are where we're at with current rules and stats. dominance.
quite interesting that the warm up game plans were pretty different, with lots of width and especially lots of 50/50 offloads. Sold a dummy perhaps.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
..Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
Feel a bit for the Test wingers, Freeman in particular runs in tries for fun apart from his wider involvement.
AF goes for narrow multi-phase stuff with well drilled moves, which brings less risk but generally less espansive.
Wingers as big as back-rowers who can field well and are defensively sound are where we're at with current rules and stats. dominance.
quite interesting that the warm up game plans were pretty different, with lots of width and especially lots of 50/50 offloads. Sold a dummy perhaps.
Yes, not showing your hand can be an advantage !
Thought SmithF was ok given his inexperience etc, I like the way he normally brings wide players into the game and mixes things up, but they need to be on the same wavelength.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
Bottom line is neither test winger has really offered enough so far. Both honest hard workers, sure, but aside from the odd flash here and there, whether that's a run that draws in defenders or an offload, threats from both have been few and far between. I'd say that probably fits AF limited game plan. Hansen has more about him usually, although its been absent from the tour so far. VdM is also quite a limited winger, although if your game plan is as limited as AFs game plans are there's no reason he can't fit in.
Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
grudging half agreement, though Freeman scores tries for fun for club and country. Lots of folks think he may be better at 13 (or even 15)....certainly his carrying and ball skills may get more useage there.
As you say, some mitigation in that AF hasn't brought an expansive game to the tests. and also how little ball we had in the 2nd test for an hour. TBH I'm not really sure what folks expected to see from the wings in the context of both game plan and how the matches have panned out....though both could easily have been canned after the 1st test- Lowe had an utter lionel, and Tommy had some very shoddy moments.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
..Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
Feel a bit for the Test wingers, Freeman in particular runs in tries for fun apart from his wider involvement.
AF goes for narrow multi-phase stuff with well drilled moves, which brings less risk but generally less espansive.
Wingers as big as back-rowers who can field well and are defensively sound are where we're at with current rules and stats. dominance.
Yup. Even with Ireland AFs wingers are more there to generally contribute rather than use their pace to attack. Perhaps its a rugby league thing? Dunno, I haven't watched league for a long while, but whatever, he likes his wingers to be, as you say, defense oriented and perhaps less specialised than might be traditional.
From that point of view, it really doesn't matter who's on the pitch or how much 'threat' they are offering, their role isn't to offer a wingers threat, its to play the game plan which Freeman and Lowe might well have been doing brilliantly.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Galfon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:05 pm
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Galfon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:05 pm
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Yeah he's looking like one of the best refs around, I really rate him
Galfon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:05 pm
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Yeah he's looking like one of the best refs around, I really rate him
Galfon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:05 pm
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Yeah he's looking like one of the best refs around, I really rate him
Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 29, 2025 7:23 pm
The Lions coaches have committed to picking their strongest squad. Phew .. what a relief. That means no Faz then (or does it .
I read that the Assistant coach (Goodman?) says the team will be picked on form. An interesting concept in this tour.
So does that mean they will drop Lowe, or that they think he is on form? Same with others. TBH I've no idea what it means.
Given Sione could have played but Farrell had already decided he wouldn't be selected, and given Jones had no injury yet was subbed last week I'm not sure the coaching team know either.
How do you judge the form of the dirt trackers who will not have played for a couple of weeks. I will believe when I see it. Still, Lowe is a good example of a player in poor form who should make way for someone else. Either Kinghorn (likely) or Hansen, with the other on the bench.
Ask AF, he seems clueless
Irrespective of how we think anyone has done on tour AF selected numerous players with no form and in some cases almost no recent game time. Lowe, Ryan, yes Aki, Porter, Curry, and of course his son
Galfon wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 6:05 pm
Faz (snr.)will probably be comfortable with the ref. appointed to this game: Amashokelly from Georgia, top ref. who tends to keep a calm head & on the money.
Recall he did eng-fra this year & eng-fra and oz-wales last year, all home wins.
Yeah he's looking like one of the best refs around, I really rate him
I don't
Really? What did Amashukeli do to lose your good opinion of him? I hold him high enough that I was pushing for him to take the RWC final if England had somehow made it.
And before anyone asks, no, I don't know what Tuipulotu has done to upset Farrell Snr
ETA: Oh, and another vote here for Amashukeli being the best of the current batch of ref.s
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
Bottom line is neither test winger has really offered enough so far. Both honest hard workers, sure, but aside from the odd flash here and there, whether that's a run that draws in defenders or an offload, threats from both have been few and far between. I'd say that probably fits AF limited game plan. Hansen has more about him usually, although its been absent from the tour so far. VdM is also quite a limited winger, although if your game plan is as limited as AFs game plans are there's no reason he can't fit in.
Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
grudging half agreement, though Freeman scores tries for fun for club and country. Lots of folks think he may be better at 13 (or even 15)....certainly his carrying and ball skills may get more useage there.
As you say, some mitigation in that AF hasn't brought an expansive game to the tests. and also how little ball we had in the 2nd test for an hour. TBH I'm not really sure what folks expected to see from the wings in the context of both game plan and how the matches have panned out....though both could easily have been canned after the 1st test- Lowe had an utter lionel, and Tommy had some very shoddy moments.
Freeman doesn't really score tries for fun for country. At one stage he had 2 tries in about 12 caps, he's improved somewhat of late, but he had a dreadful hit rate up until the 6n this year.
England wingers (back 3) v similar to AF teams, pace very much secondary to aerial work and all round bits and pieces. See Steward, Freeman and new fave roebuck.
Even now Freeman only has 7 in 21, that's a pretty ordinary return. If he continues at the rate this year then great.
Donny osmond wrote: ↑Wed Jul 30, 2025 10:12 am
Bottom line is neither test winger has really offered enough so far. Both honest hard workers, sure, but aside from the odd flash here and there, whether that's a run that draws in defenders or an offload, threats from both have been few and far between. I'd say that probably fits AF limited game plan. Hansen has more about him usually, although its been absent from the tour so far. VdM is also quite a limited winger, although if your game plan is as limited as AFs game plans are there's no reason he can't fit in.
Anyone looking for exciting sniping attacking wingers shouldn't be watching an AF coached team.
grudging half agreement, though Freeman scores tries for fun for club and country. Lots of folks think he may be better at 13 (or even 15)....certainly his carrying and ball skills may get more useage there.
As you say, some mitigation in that AF hasn't brought an expansive game to the tests. and also how little ball we had in the 2nd test for an hour. TBH I'm not really sure what folks expected to see from the wings in the context of both game plan and how the matches have panned out....though both could easily have been canned after the 1st test- Lowe had an utter lionel, and Tommy had some very shoddy moments.
Freeman doesn't really score tries for fun for country. At one stage he had 2 tries in about 12 caps, he's improved somewhat of late, but he had a dreadful hit rate up until the 6n this year.
England wingers (back 3) v similar to AF teams, pace very much secondary to aerial work and all round bits and pieces. See Steward, Freeman and new fave roebuck.
Even now Freeman only has 7 in 21, that's a pretty ordinary return. If he continues at the rate this year then great.
Well he scored in every 6n game, prior to that England were playing a bit shit esp in the backs but you make a fair point, but given the chance he finishes and certainly scores a lot for Saints, as well as assists and strong carries. The basic point is that he’s a very good winger capable of scoring loadsa tries. You’ve also re emphasised my point about deployment, though Freeman is somewhat quicker than Steward and I’d think Roebuck too. Can’t really moan about try scoring rates when the wingers aren’t necessarily picked or set up to do that.
R3dders wrote: ↑Fri Aug 01, 2025 10:03 am
No sure, he's a great winger. I just don't think it's accurate to say he scores tries for fun for England, pretty much the opposite in fact.
He had a great 6n. He scored tries for fun in that tournament. Remains to be seen if it was a purple patch.
I said club and country, and he did for country, in the 6N- and I did say you made a fair point. So if I said, he recently has been scoring tries for fun for club and country, would that make you happier? And you have to acknowledge that to some extent a wingers try scoring rate is a function of the team's own performance?
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