Puja wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:15 pm
Only watched the first half fully, as got bored and went to the highlights - fair to say the second half was quite different!
SAtkinson had an absolute mare in that first half. Dropped simple passes, made a godsawful mistake for the first Saints try to tackle the wroong player, threw a pass to nobody, threw a pass to the floor, made zero impact on the gainline - was like everything he touched went to shit. Did he get better second half?
Puja
A little harsh. He was badly at fault for the Saints 2nd try but did plenty of neat things over the course of the game. He was part of a Gloucester team that isnt really firing.
Big effort from Fasogbon. To go the full 80 takes some doing and he took his try with aplomb.
Puja wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:15 pm
Only watched the first half fully, as got bored and went to the highlights - fair to say the second half was quite different!
SAtkinson had an absolute mare in that first half. Dropped simple passes, made a godsawful mistake for the first Saints try to tackle the wroong player, threw a pass to nobody, threw a pass to the floor, made zero impact on the gainline - was like everything he touched went to shit. Did he get better second half?
Puja
A little harsh. He was badly at fault for the Saints 2nd try but did plenty of neat things over the course of the game. He was part of a Gloucester team that isnt really firing.
Big effort from Fasogbon. To go the full 80 takes some doing and he took his try with aplomb.
If you call out anyone on that one it would be Joseph who focusses on the two runners in behind Litchfield, though to be fair they're marking off against a full diamond of runners, so whichever one you choose you're fucked. Sometimes you just have to applaud the attack.
Puja wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:15 pm
Only watched the first half fully, as got bored and went to the highlights - fair to say the second half was quite different!
SAtkinson had an absolute mare in that first half. Dropped simple passes, made a godsawful mistake for the first Saints try to tackle the wroong player, threw a pass to nobody, threw a pass to the floor, made zero impact on the gainline - was like everything he touched went to shit. Did he get better second half?
Puja
A little harsh. He was badly at fault for the Saints 2nd try but did plenty of neat things over the course of the game. He was part of a Gloucester team that isnt really firing.
Big effort from Fasogbon. To go the full 80 takes some doing and he took his try with aplomb.
If you call out anyone on that one it would be Joseph who focusses on the two runners in behind Litchfield, though to be fair they're marking off against a full diamond of runners, so whichever one you choose you're fucked. Sometimes you just have to applaud the attack.
Hard disagree.
Gloucester are numbered up in midfield - the inside player (Byrne?) has Hutchinson completely covered, Litchfield is running at SAtkinson's channel, and WJoseph is completely entitled to expect that SAtkinson is going to stay in his channel and so he's got latitude to try and cut off the pull-back. The issue is that, for some reason, SAtkinson thinks that Hutchinson is his man, and literally moves out of Litchfield's way to step in and make a tackle on a player that is already tackled.
It's utterly bizarre - if you watch it back, it's not that he's worried about his inside defender, but that he doesn't even seem to think he exists. SAtkinson's got his eyes glued on Hutchinson and his head and shoulders turned inwards, from a distance out, and he doesn't spare a glance for anything else at any point. Laser-focussed on stepping in to smash a runner that is manifestly not his man to mark.
I'm a big fan of SAtkinson and I want him to be successful, but that's not a glorious piece of attack; it's a regulation tip-on that he's turned into a try with a terrible decision. If Farrell had made that poor of an error, we'd be screaming at him.
Flash forward to 2032 and we’re all desperately asking why Atkinson now has 65 caps at 12 despite regularly missing tackles, fluffing passes and making zero metres with the ball.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 07, 2025 7:45 am
Flash forward to 2032 and we’re all desperately asking why Atkinson now has 65 caps at 12 despite regularly missing tackles, fluffing passes and making zero metres with the ball.
I'm more worried about him being a Billy Twelvetrees - replete with everything he needs to succeed, a really good player 90% of the time, but the other 10% undoes all of the good. 20-odd caps in 4-6 cap bursts as we keep thinking he's cracked it this time before it falls apart again
I'm hopeful I'm catastrophising, cause I loved his performances in the summer. Glad to hear he improved in the second half.
I think you have to view that Atkinson defensive decision in conjunction with the first try. Ross Byrne gets absolutely ran through for that 1st so Atkinson is probably has little faith in his new partner and doesn’t back him. He should but these are split second decisions.
New players either side of him and a defence that was a mess. Second half much better.
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 07, 2025 9:23 am
I think you have to view that Atkinson defensive decision in conjunction with the first try. Ross Byrne gets absolutely ran through for that 1st so Atkinson is probably has little faith in his new partner and doesn’t back him. He should but these are split second decisions.
New players either side of him and a defence that was a mess. Second half much better.
Not unfair. You're right that the newness of the combinations is definitely to be taken into account - while SAtkinson sold WJoseph down the river by stepping in, a more familiar centre combination may've seen WJoseph reading him better and also stepping in. Would've ended up with Hutchinson likely doing a pull-back that left Loader facing a 3-on-1, but at least they wouldn't've been broken down the middle.
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 07, 2025 9:23 am
I think you have to view that Atkinson defensive decision in conjunction with the first try. Ross Byrne gets absolutely ran through for that 1st so Atkinson is probably has little faith in his new partner and doesn’t back him. He should but these are split second decisions.
New players either side of him and a defence that was a mess. Second half much better.
Not unfair. You're right that the newness of the combinations is definitely to be taken into account - while SAtkinson sold WJoseph down the river by stepping in, a more familiar centre combination may've seen WJoseph reading him better and also stepping in. Would've ended up with Hutchinson likely doing a pull-back that left Loader facing a 3-on-1, but at least they wouldn't've been broken down the middle.
Puja
There's also the possible lack of faith in the new inside man for Seb Atkinson. If he doesn't trust Byrne then he's always going to step in to cover that channel.
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Oct 07, 2025 9:23 am
I think you have to view that Atkinson defensive decision in conjunction with the first try. Ross Byrne gets absolutely ran through for that 1st so Atkinson is probably has little faith in his new partner and doesn’t back him. He should but these are split second decisions.
New players either side of him and a defence that was a mess. Second half much better.
It is Seb Blake inside him, who is badly positioned, coupled with Hutchinson going hard at Atkinson.
A little harsh. He was badly at fault for the Saints 2nd try but did plenty of neat things over the course of the game. He was part of a Gloucester team that isnt really firing.
Big effort from Fasogbon. To go the full 80 takes some doing and he took his try with aplomb.
If you call out anyone on that one it would be Joseph who focusses on the two runners in behind Litchfield, though to be fair they're marking off against a full diamond of runners, so whichever one you choose you're fucked. Sometimes you just have to applaud the attack.
Hard disagree.
Gloucester are numbered up in midfield - the inside player (Byrne?) has Hutchinson completely covered, Litchfield is running at SAtkinson's channel, and WJoseph is completely entitled to expect that SAtkinson is going to stay in his channel and so he's got latitude to try and cut off the pull-back. The issue is that, for some reason, SAtkinson thinks that Hutchinson is his man, and literally moves out of Litchfield's way to step in and make a tackle on a player that is already tackled.
It's utterly bizarre - if you watch it back, it's not that he's worried about his inside defender, but that he doesn't even seem to think he exists. SAtkinson's got his eyes glued on Hutchinson and his head and shoulders turned inwards, from a distance out, and he doesn't spare a glance for anything else at any point. Laser-focussed on stepping in to smash a runner that is manifestly not his man to mark.
I'm a big fan of SAtkinson and I want him to be successful, but that's not a glorious piece of attack; it's a regulation tip-on that he's turned into a try with a terrible decision. If Farrell had made that poor of an error, we'd be screaming at him.
Puja
It is a full diamond, rather than a tip on.
Initially Gloucester are lined up OK(ish), though Seb Blake is slightly too narrow, whilst Saints have set up with a four player motion, in their classic diamond. It is a 4 on 3 which always means danger! They run this play a lot, as it overloads the defence and only needs one person to give them the right cue and they're busting the line.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.21.54.png
Hutchinson, seeing what is in front of him, does the right thing and runs directly at Atkinson, thus taking Blake somewhat out of the defensive equation. If Atkinson bites, which if you've got an attacker going right at you is inevitable, then Hutchinson has three options to pass to. Litchfield on his shoulder and two out the back.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.24.15.png
You can clearly see, as was explained by the commentating setup, Jospeh is concerned by the two deep runners, and as such has slipped wider leaving a gaping hole for Litchfield to run into.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.24.35.png
Now, I could apportion some blame to Blake for being too narrow, Atkinson for biting, or Joseph for ignoring the close in threat and opening up the gap. But I am more inclined to reward the attack for a good setup and then executing an overload of a 4 on 3 threat. To be fair to Jospeh if he stays close then Hutchinson goes out the back to one of the two deeper runners and they then overload the wide defence. Either way it is very smart setup play and execution at the line.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Thu Oct 09, 2025 9:34 amIt is a full diamond, rather than a tip on.
Initially Gloucester are lined up OK(ish), though Seb Blake is slightly too narrow, whilst Saints have set up with a four player motion, in their classic diamond. It is a 4 on 3 which always means danger! They run this play a lot, as it overloads the defence and only needs one person to give them the right cue and they're busting the line.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.21.54.png
Hutchinson, seeing what is in front of him, does the right thing and runs directly at Atkinson, thus taking Blake somewhat out of the defensive equation. If Atkinson bites, which if you've got an attacker going right at you is inevitable, then Hutchinson has three options to pass to. Litchfield on his shoulder and two out the back.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.24.15.png
You can clearly see, as was explained by the commentating setup, Jospeh is concerned by the two deep runners, and as such has slipped wider leaving a gaping hole for Litchfield to run into.
Screenshot 2025-10-09 at 09.24.35.png
Now, I could apportion some blame to Blake for being too narrow, Atkinson for biting, or Joseph for ignoring the close in threat and opening up the gap. But I am more inclined to reward the attack for a good setup and then executing an overload of a 4 on 3 threat. To be fair to Jospeh if he stays close then Hutchinson goes out the back to one of the two deeper runners and they then overload the wide defence. Either way it is very smart setup play and execution at the line.
Thank you for taking the time to clip up the pictures - I wanted to show it from that angle as it shows it perfectly, but I couldn't find it on the interwebs and was too lazy to sort the pictures myself, so I just went with the highlights video.
I would still say I disagree with you. Glaws are actually pretty well numbered up: Blake (thank you for the correction) for Hutchinson, SAtkinson for Litchfield, WJoseph is covering the pull-back options.
Hutchinson is running at the gap between Blake and SAtkinson and, while I do take your point about there being a larger gap than you'd like between a hooker and a back in the first screenshot, it's not egregious and Blake is not a slow hooker. He's booking it and has the inside line of Hutchinson, which means there is no possibility of him being stepped inside. Barring a stumble or a bad missed tackle, he clearly has Hutchinson covered, as can be seen by the next picture after your ones being Blake solidly tackling Hutchinson. Granted, it's not comfortable enough that SAtkinson can drift straight onto Litchfield (and give Hutchinson more space to try and round Blake), but if he just treads water, then the gap stays small enough that Blake has Hutchinson covered every day of the week, and the try is not scored.
That's why I called it a simple tip-on - there's the diamond there, but that's not relevant to the choice that was in front of SAtkinson as any pull-backs are WJoseph's problem. He is effectively faced with a 2-on-2 drill and he decides to step in and leave the outside man free. He **has** to trust his inside man in that situation and the fact that he doesn't (especially since he's proven wrong by Blake making the tackle) is a bad misread. It's understandable - I'm watching this with slow motion and stills and I know for a fact that I do not have the capacity to see that live on a pitch myself. However, if he wants to be England's 12, then he can't be making decision-making errors like that.
Blimey, its one game and one mistake. He's got a lot of credit in the bank as far as i'm concerned and one misjudgement isnt going to alter my view that he's a top player.
