England vs Australia - Sat 3.10pm

[pjm1]

It is a concern - as in it's probably our biggest (and most obvious) potential weakness in this team. I can only assume he sees enough benefit to bringing Genge and LCD on in that second half, to outweigh the lack of direct carrying options in the first.

I am 100% certain this wouldn't have been the selection against SA, for sure!

The big change from the Jones era, especially 2025 has been on manipulating space - half gaps between defenders, and the same is true closer into to the ruck. We saw it in Argentina and for me, this is the big Blackett influence. All we need to do is half-bust a tackle and the offload is on. I think this is where our attacking structure and decision-making (especially 9 & 10) is crucial.

If we don't manage to manipulate the defence to create those half-gaps then I agree with you, the lack of enough route 1 options may come back to bite us. But, if we're smarter and secure faster ball, having players across the park who play with their heads up might get us some breaks. Footwork beats bosh if you have someone on your outside shoulder.

[Danno]

I like that we're debating the relative merits of very good players against other, very good players. I makes a nice change from fearing that Faz will get a run to neck tackle someone, or Slade can shoot out of the line and let someone canter through the hole.

I am surprisingly comfortable with what looks on the face of it to be a rash and risky selection. My internal justification is as follows:

Front row - rewarding strong performance in Arg, although the Arg scrum was pretty appalling - how far they have fallen... Bomb squad tactics as already stated. Also think George to throw into our lineout with fewer natural jumpers makes sense
Second row - don't think there's any debate
Back row - we have an absolute plethora of riches here. When other nations (and lots of them, all tier 1) are saying our back row stocks are to die for, I worry less about the personnel chosen. We do lack at least one heavy, tight carrier - so I hope (and expect) our tactics not to rely on having them
Halves - Mitchell plus either of Ford/Fin is as good a combo as most teams could muster - again, we have real riches at 10 between our 3, so count ourselves lucky
Centres - I love Dingwall as a player, so delighted he is in. Freeman is an experiment (ignoring the Wales game since that was an unopposed training run) so looking forward to see how it goes - and we get another aerial master in the team
Wings - nice balance and good in the air vs other options (I see FW as competing for a speedster spot with Arundell)
FB - only real option, and he is playing well

For me, it all comes down to the tactics and how we balance our attacking options - pod carries vs back line moves vs tactical kicking (including kick pass). With our faster forwards, I can see us looking for gaps close into the ruck and offloads - our faster forwards are very good ball handlers, so even a half break can tip on to another back rower coming through alongside. Really hoping for a tactical kicking masterclass from Ford - he is usually so good at that, it's an art form rather than a frustration of grubbers when we have men over.

My concern is we don’t have any tight carriers in that pack Genge aside ( could Underhill take on some of this? He has the power ) ditto in the backs and our tactics from the Jones era to date have largely relied on having one or more players with this ability.

That wasn't really working after 2016 Billy. We were persistently waiting for Billy to find form or Manu to be fit (or both). Now Willis is buggering off and neither Martin or CCS are fit we're going to have to go around them for a while and see if that works.

[Oakboy]

Thinking about the 6:2 bench with two 7s on it who are always good for 80, might SB even make changes in the first half? Unless there is some new, radical scheme planned, it just seems pointless to me, the more I think about it.

If, as claimed, Curry is fully fit, starting him and Pollock at 7/8 would automatically have given so many better bench options. If Curry's lack of minutes this season is any sort of consideration why is he even on the bench?

[FKAS]

Thinking about the 6:2 bench with two 7s on it who are always good for 80, might SB even make changes in the first half? Unless there is some new, radical scheme planned, it just seems pointless to me, the more I think about it.

If, as claimed, Curry is fully fit, starting him and Pollock at 7/8 would automatically have given so many better bench options. If Curry's lack of minutes this season is any sort of consideration why is he even on the bench?

Who would you have instead as bench impact?

[Puja]

I don't see why we're pairing Mitchell with Ford and Smith with Spencer. It makes no sense to me.

Good point, that!

Weeks back, Austin Healey said it should be Mitchell/Fin or Spencer/Marcus. I suppose we should add Ford/Quirke?

He was talking about combination of styles- 1 dasher, 1 controller was the jist.

This still works with Mitchell and Ford.

I do agree it’s weird to have Ford at 10 with saints at 9, 12 and 13 though.

Agreed - Ford is good enough and experienced enough that he can play with anyone at 9, even Ben Spencer, but it would seem the obvious choice with the lack of build-up time to go for the pre-existing combo of Saints 9-10-12 (not counting 13, cause he's not really played outside those three at 13 before). However, Ford is in such incredible form and such a good player that I can understand if Blackett et al just think he's a step above. I'd've gone for FSmith, but IBWT (either one).

If we don't manage to manipulate the defence to create those half-gaps then I agree with you, the lack of enough route 1 options may come back to bite us. But, if we're smarter and secure faster ball, having players across the park who play with their heads up might get us some breaks. Footwork beats bosh if you have someone on your outside shoulder.

Agreed - as seen by the fact that Dan is regularly one of the most impactful carriers into traffic despite being tiny; he attacks weaknesses rather than running into chests. If we could get his brain into CCS's body, we'd have a hell of a player.

As I've said elsewhere on the board, it would be lovely to have a big impactful carrier like TWillis available to us. However, you go to war with the army that you have and Bandersnatch has a history of fitting the gameplan to the players, rather than trying to fit players to a gameplan.

If Curry's lack of minutes this season is any sort of consideration why is he even on the bench?

I can think of two reasons - 1) He might not have 80 minutes in his legs given it's his first game of the season, but his leadership and skills are considered important, especially in closing out the game, 2) There's more than one game this autumn, so playing him off the bench here and then starting him against Fiji, might leave him fully match-fit by New Zealand.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Thinking about the 6:2 bench with two 7s on it who are always good for 80, might SB even make changes in the first half? Unless there is some new, radical scheme planned, it just seems pointless to me, the more I think about it.

If, as claimed, Curry is fully fit, starting him and Pollock at 7/8 would automatically have given so many better bench options. If Curry's lack of minutes this season is any sort of consideration why is he even on the bench?

Who would you have instead as bench impact?

Arundell.

[SixAndAHalf]

Are we underrating Baxter and in particular Heyes as ball carriers? Not Genge level but both carried well in Argentina.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Are we underrating Baxter and in particular Heyes as ball carriers? Not Genge level but both carried well in Argentina.

No.

[Danno]

Heyes is more of a try finisher

[Captainhaircut]

Carrying will be weaker but think we’ll be strong on clear out- George, Baxter, Heyes and Underhill all very strong there. Chessum likely to carry more where I think he is much improved.

[Scrumhead]

I wouldn’t really say Baxter or Heyes are notably good carriers. However, I think they’re underrated as a pair. Their work rate and defensive work in Argentina was top notch.

Baxter in particular is just a very good rugby player - his tackling and ruck work are excellent and his handling and passing skills are better than Genge and Stuart’s IMO.

Personally, I’d favour a mix and match - either Baxter and Stuart or Genge and Heyes but either way, I think we’re building a nice stable of very capable props.

[FKAS]

I wouldn’t really say Baxter or Heyes are notably good carriers. However, I think they’re underrated as a pair. Their work rate and defensive work in Argentina was top notch.

Baxter in particular is just a very good rugby player - his tackling and ruck work are excellent and his handling and passing skills are better than Genge and Stuart’s IMO.

Personally, I’d favour a mix and match - either Baxter and Stuart or Genge and Heyes but either way, I think we’re building a nice stable of very capable props.

I'd have preferred to match them as you suggest. Heyes has really come good over the last year. Had Baxter on toast in the Prem game a few weeks back. He's mobile for nearly 20 stone of tighthead. Doesn't carry a great deal but when he does it's the unglamorous stuff in the tight exchanges. Seems to get more chance to stretch his legs for England so maybe we'll see more carrying from both props this weekend.

[Mikey Brown]

Baxter is not a wrecking ball carrier like Genge, not even close, but he does have an invaluable ability (like Marler did) to repeatedly take on that really slow ball against a set defence and recycle cleanly.

Like Underhill (who I do still think is massively underrated in attack) he’s also very good at moving the ball in and around contact to put people through gaps.

That’s not to say we couldn’t still do with a heavyweight carrier in there, but if this bench is used correctly it could well suck the life out of Australia.

[FKAS]

Allianz Stadium, Twickenham
Referee: Nika Amashukeli (Geo)
ARs: James Doleman (NZ) & Craig Evans (Wal)
TMO: Eric Gauzins (Fra)
FPRO: Matteo Liperini (Ita)

England

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
14. Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks, 6 caps)
13. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 20 caps)
12. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, 4 caps)
11. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
10. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 102 caps) – vice-captain
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, 23 caps)

1. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 14 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 102 caps) – vice-captain
3. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 93 caps) – captain
5. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)
6. Guy Pepper (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 42 caps)

Replacements:
16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Sale Sharks, 49 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 71 caps) – vice-captain
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
19. Alex Coles (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
20. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 61 caps)
21. Henry Pollock (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
22. Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
23. Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)

Australia

1. Angus Bell (45 Tests) - #940; Hunters Hill Rugby Club
2. Billy Pollard (17 Tests) - #958; Lindfield Junior Rugby
3. Taniela Tupou (65 Tests) - #917; Brothers Rugby
4. Nick Frost (34 Tests) - #953; Hornsby Lions
5. Jeremy Williams (21 Tests) – #973; Wahroonga Tigers
6. Rob Valetini (58 Tests) - #929; Harlequin Rugby Club
7. Fraser McReight (35 Tests) - #937; Albany Creek Brumbies
8. Harry Wilson (c) (32Tests) - #933; Gunnedah Red Devils

9. Jake Gordon (33 Tests) - #925; Canterbury Juniors
10. Tane Edmed (5 Tests) - #990; West Harbour Juniors
11. Harry Potter (7 Tests) - #989; Moorabbin Rams
12. Hunter Paisami (33 Tests) - #932; Harlequin Rugby Club
13. Joseph-Aukuso Suaalii (14 Tests) - #988; The Kings School
14. Max Jorgensen (17 Tests) - #984; Balmain Wolves
15. Andrew Kellaway (45 Tests) - #943; Hunters Hill Rugby Club

Substitutes
16. Josh Nasser (9 Tests) - #979; Easts Rugby (Brisbane)
17. Tom Robertson (37 Tests) - #898; Dubbo Kangaroos
18. Allan Alaalatoa (85 Tests) - #896; West Harbour Juniors
19. Lukhan Salakaia-Loto (44 Tests) – #914; Randwick
20. Nick Champion de Crespigny (3 Tests) - #991; Canberra Grammar School
21. Ryan Lonergan (2 Tests) - #933; Tuggeranong Vikings
22. Hamish Stewart (3 Tests) - #986; Toowoomba Bears
23. Filipo Daugunu (16 Tests) - #931, Wests Bulldogs

[FKAS]

Aussie halfbacks look targetable, otherwise a strong side for them.

[Puja]

Aussie halfbacks look targetable, otherwise a strong side for them.

Hadn't realised until the other day that they can't use any of their overseas players cause it's outside the window - so no Ikitau, Hooper, O'Connor, or Skelton. Significantly weakens them.

Puja

[FKAS]

Aussie halfbacks look targetable, otherwise a strong side for them.

Hadn't realised until the other day that they can't use any of their overseas players cause it's outside the window - so no Ikitau, Hooper, O'Connor, or Skelton. Significantly weakens them.

Puja

It does. There's some very good replacements for Hooper, Ikitau and Skelton in there to be fair. It would have helped tool up the bench and maybe meant they went 6:2 had those players been available though. O'Connor is a real blow though with such green halfbacks (outside of Gordon), especially as he'll be sat with his feet up in Leicestershire watching the game not involved in the Tigers PRC match.

[Captainhaircut]

Not sure O’connor would have started. They’ve generally gone Edmed ahead of him.

Hooper unlikely to start either as Valentini now fit.

Both likely good off the bench though.

Think this is their strongest side bar Skelton and Ikitau. Maybe Wright at full back too. They will miss them but think that’s more than mitigated by having had 4 months together whilst we’ve had a week.

Not feeling particularly confident.

[Scrumhead]

Pretty strong Australian side. However, worth mentioning that their win rate is still hovering around 40% and a couple of big results are putting a significant bit of gloss on the Schmidt era.

[FKAS]

Not sure O’connor would have started. They’ve generally gone Edmed ahead of him.

Hooper unlikely to start either as Valentini now fit.

Both likely good off the bench though.

Think this is their strongest side bar Skelton and Ikitau. Maybe Wright at full back too. They will miss them but think that’s more than mitigated by having had 4 months together whilst we’ve had a week.

Not feeling particularly confident.

Yeah JOC on the bench was a utility back instead of Hamish Stewart allowing them to go 6:2. Skelton and Hooper onto the bench for Nick Champion de Crespigny and Filipo Daugunu. Would have given Australia a fearsome bench for second half impact.

[FKAS]

Pretty strong Australian side. However, worth mentioning that their win rate is still hovering around 40% and a couple of big results are putting a significant bit of gloss on the Schmidt era.

Remembering where he picked up from there's been a massive improvement.

[Danno]

Pretty strong Australian side. However, worth mentioning that their win rate is still hovering around 40% and a couple of big results are putting a significant bit of gloss on the Schmidt era.

They beat us last time out tbf

[Puja]

Pretty strong Australian side. However, worth mentioning that their win rate is still hovering around 40% and a couple of big results are putting a significant bit of gloss on the Schmidt era.

They beat us last time out tbf

Mind, that was mostly because TCurry got a freak head knock and it completely unbalanced our back row play. We were giving them a good doing over before he left the pitch.

Puja

[jngf]

Regardless of shirt numbers, I would like to see Sam Underhill given a chance to pick up off the base in attacking scrums and tie that Aussie defence in somewhat ( even break some holes through it? ) Funnily enough playing Earl at openside on attack would also give him chance to do his link man thing and exploit that wide channel running ability and pace of his.

[Puja]

Not sure O’connor would have started. They’ve generally gone Edmed ahead of him.

Hooper unlikely to start either as Valentini now fit.

Both likely good off the bench though.

Think this is their strongest side bar Skelton and Ikitau. Maybe Wright at full back too. They will miss them but think that’s more than mitigated by having had 4 months together whilst we’ve had a week.

Not feeling particularly confident.

Also missing Liam Wright, Lolesio, Lynagh, Gleeson, Samu, plus the hooker who's name I can't recall as well - not all of them would've played, but would've added depth. I think fly-half especially where they're suffering - not sure Edmed's international quality and he's their 3rd/4th choice. Ikitau's the biggest miss though - he's been their best player and is in terrific form.

Puja