England v Fiji

[astralweeks]

Justpark.com
Depending which way you are coming Egham or staines(upon thames) and then hop on train.

[TheDasher]

Justpark.com
Depending which way you are coming Egham or staines(upon thames) and then hop on train.

Thank you.

Actually just used a site called Yourparkingspace - really very good indeed.

All sorted I hope.

Thanks again.

[Puja]

Interesting note, which I don't think anyone's commented on yet, is that Ellis Genge is going to be the captain this weekend. Granted, he is the obvious choice with no Itoje, George, TCurry, or Ford in the starting lineup, but Starts Baghoarding could've played any one of those this game if he wanted. Appears to also be building leadership experience depth, as well as squad depth, which is a good thing to have - it was notable that 2003 we had Leonard, Vickery, Johnson, Dallaglio, and Dawson who'd all previously captained England, which provided a cadre of leadership.

Puja

[Spiffy]

Interesting there is no Stuart, Underhill or Ford - does it suggest they are falling down the pecking order or more a case of wanting to give young players experience in those positions?

Underhill, a proper hard nut and a beast of a tackler, is the man to play against a NZ back row containing Ardie Savea., who makes hard yards look easy against most opponents.

[FKAS]

The Fiji website isn't that helpful with providing a named side.

"Coach Mick Byrne’s line-up will be a force with the forward pack anchored by a strong front row of Eroni Mawi, Tevita Ikanivere, and Mesake Doge. The second row sees the towering partnership of Isoa Nasilasila and Temo Mayanavanua, while the back row is comprised of Kitione Salawa and Elia Canakaivata on the flanks, with the dynamic Viliame Mata starting at number 8.

In the backs, Simione Kuruvoli will direct play from halfback, partnering with fly-half Caleb Muntz, who will steer a dangerous backline. The midfield features a powerful combination of Josua Tuisova at inside center and Kalaveti Ravouvou at outside center. Out wide, the explosive Jiuta Wainiqolo is on one wing, with the elusive Selestino Ravutaumada on the other.

Impact Players: The bench includes Zuriel Togiatama, Haereiti Hetet, Samuela Tawake, Mesake Vocevoce, Motikai Murray, Sam Why, Isaiah Armstrong-Ravula, and Sireli Maqala."

[Oakboy]

Interesting note, which I don't think anyone's commented on yet, is that Ellis Genge is going to be the captain this weekend. Granted, he is the obvious choice with no Itoje, George, TCurry, or Ford in the starting lineup, but Starts Baghoarding could've played any one of those this game if he wanted. Appears to also be building leadership experience depth, as well as squad depth, which is a good thing to have - it was notable that 2003 we had Leonard, Vickery, Johnson, Dallaglio, and Dawson who'd all previously captained England, which provided a cadre of leadership.

Puja

Is there a named vc? Who takes over at 60?

[FKAS]

Interesting note, which I don't think anyone's commented on yet, is that Ellis Genge is going to be the captain this weekend. Granted, he is the obvious choice with no Itoje, George, TCurry, or Ford in the starting lineup, but Starts Baghoarding could've played any one of those this game if he wanted. Appears to also be building leadership experience depth, as well as squad depth, which is a good thing to have - it was notable that 2003 we had Leonard, Vickery, Johnson, Dallaglio, and Dawson who'd all previously captained England, which provided a cadre of leadership.

Puja

Is there a named vc? Who takes over at 60?

England’s second fixture of the 2025 Quilter Nations Series sees Maro Itoje and Ellis Genge named as co-captains. With Itoje among the replacements this week, Genge will lead the team from the start of the match. They are supported by vice-captains Jamie George, Fraser Dingwall and Ollie Chessum.

[FKAS]

The Fiji website isn't that helpful with providing a named side.

"Coach Mick Byrne’s line-up will be a force with the forward pack anchored by a strong front row of Eroni Mawi, Tevita Ikanivere, and Mesake Doge. The second row sees the towering partnership of Isoa Nasilasila and Temo Mayanavanua, while the back row is comprised of Kitione Salawa and Elia Canakaivata on the flanks, with the dynamic Viliame Mata starting at number 8.

In the backs, Simione Kuruvoli will direct play from halfback, partnering with fly-half Caleb Muntz, who will steer a dangerous backline. The midfield features a powerful combination of Josua Tuisova at inside center and Kalaveti Ravouvou at outside center. Out wide, the explosive Jiuta Wainiqolo is on one wing, with the elusive Selestino Ravutaumada on the other.

Impact Players: The bench includes Zuriel Togiatama, Haereiti Hetet, Samuela Tawake, Mesake Vocevoce, Motikai Murray, Sam Why, Isaiah Armstrong-Ravula, and Sireli Maqala."

So I think makes it:

1. Mawi
2. Ikanivere
3. Doge
4. Nasilasila
5. Mayanavanua
6. Salawa
7. Canakaivata
8. Mata
9. Kuruvoli
10. Muntz
11. Wainiqolo
12. Tuisova
13. Ravouvou
14. Ravutaumada
15. Rayasi

16. Togiatama
17. Hetet
18. Tawake
19. Vocevoce
20. Murray
21. Why
22. Armstrong-Ravula
23. Maqala

[FKAS]

We'll see if Dingwall really does have the physicality for international rugby up against Tuisova.

Usually explosive Fijian team we'll have to control, test their discipline and deny momentum. Good chance for Fin Smith to show he can control a game like Ford.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah I was wondering why the co-captain on the bench thing hadn’t been brought up yet. Why everyone in “the leadership group” needs to be given a formal title on the teamsheet I don’t know.

Dingwall becomes captain after 4 injuries? Okay, great.

Good shout on the Tuisova (and probably Mata) test for Dingwall.

Shame to see we don’t persevere with the Freeman experiment but it will be good to see Lawrence given another go. I wonder if we’ll look any less rusty in midfield after another week, but with a new combo.

I’ll be very interested to see where Ford and Underhill stand for the following week.

[Oakboy]

Yeah I was wondering why the co-captain on the bench thing hadn’t been brought up yet. Why everyone in “the leadership group” needs to be given a formal title on the teamsheet I don’t know.

Dingwall becomes captain after 4 injuries? Okay, great.

Good shout on the Tuisova (and probably Mata) test for Dingwall.

Shame to see we don’t persevere with the Freeman experiment but it will be good to see Lawrence given another go. I wonder if we’ll look any less rusty in midfield after another week, but with a new combo.

I’ll be very interested to see where Ford and Underhill stand for the following week.

It's easy to stick the NZ game up as the pinnacle but maybe SB is tending more towards longer-term progression i.e. counting the Argentina game as significant in preparation for the 6N. He's on a bit of a hiding to nothing because of the order of the AIs that the RFU have lumbered him with. Theoretically, with the Lions guys back, there should be significant measurable improvement in the Argentina game, assuming that he picks his 'best XV'.

Press reports mention tickets being given to clubs to boost the attendance for tomorrow to 70,000 whereas there was no difficulty in selling out the stadium for the other three matches.

[Captainhaircut]

I would agree with that on the NZ game but I’m just desperate to beat those fuckers.

I hate their “all black” bullshit, I hate their “no dickheads” bullshit (whilst picking people who beat women), I hate watching white men do a fucking tribal dance, I hate their breakdancing coach and I hate the fact they’ve somehow won all three of the last matches against us.

[FKAS]

Yeah I was wondering why the co-captain on the bench thing hadn’t been brought up yet. Why everyone in “the leadership group” needs to be given a formal title on the teamsheet I don’t know.

Dingwall becomes captain after 4 injuries? Okay, great.

Good shout on the Tuisova (and probably Mata) test for Dingwall.

Shame to see we don’t persevere with the Freeman experiment but it will be good to see Lawrence given another go. I wonder if we’ll look any less rusty in midfield after another week, but with a new combo.

I’ll be very interested to see where Ford and Underhill stand for the following week.

It's easy to stick the NZ game up as the pinnacle but maybe SB is tending more towards longer-term progression i.e. counting the Argentina game as significant in preparation for the 6N. He's on a bit of a hiding to nothing because of the order of the AIs that the RFU have lumbered him with. Theoretically, with the Lions guys back, there should be significant measurable improvement in the Argentina game, assuming that he picks his 'best XV'.

Press reports mention tickets being given to clubs to boost the attendance for tomorrow to 70,000 whereas there was no difficulty in selling out the stadium for the other three matches.

Not how Statistical Boldselection thinks about it. He's talked before about the best XV over 80 mins and how that changes as the game plan evolves and players tire. He sees it as very much a 23 man game. The evolution we're seeing is a growing confidence in the overall squad which lends itself to those horses for courses selections that he prefers.

I'm expecting us to go pretty hard in all four games but to keep using the squad we've got. Wins and opportunities for squad players being key this autumn.

[Oakboy]

I would agree with that on the NZ game but I’m just desperate to beat those fuckers.

I hate their “all black” bullshit, I hate their “no dickheads” bullshit (whilst picking people who beat women), I hate watching white men do a fucking tribal dance, I hate their breakdancing coach and I hate the fact they’ve somehow won all three of the last matches against us.

Don't hold back! I don't think there is any doubt that SB will be fielding the XV that he feels best equipped to win. MB's point about Ford and Underhill WILL be intriguing. There is a real possibility that both miss out, I suppose. It would require quite a few decisions: Fin to demand the 10 shirt, Marcus to demand a place in the 23, Pepper to justify keeping his place, Curry to demand the 7 shirt, Earl or CCS to demand the 8 shirt and the balance of the bench (where Underhill lacks the versatility of others, perhaps?) etc.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. I am encouraged at how Borthwick is building depth and versatility in the squad and I like his focus on making the best of the resources we have rather than pining for players that don't exist (or have made themselves unavailable).

There’s quite a lot of change in the starting XV but this isn’t exactly a callow group of youngsters and I’d argue that the players rotated in have as much of a claim to the shirt as the players they’re replacing - Fin for Ford being the most obvious example.

[Oakboy]

Yeah I was wondering why the co-captain on the bench thing hadn’t been brought up yet. Why everyone in “the leadership group” needs to be given a formal title on the teamsheet I don’t know.

Dingwall becomes captain after 4 injuries? Okay, great.

Good shout on the Tuisova (and probably Mata) test for Dingwall.

Shame to see we don’t persevere with the Freeman experiment but it will be good to see Lawrence given another go. I wonder if we’ll look any less rusty in midfield after another week, but with a new combo.

I’ll be very interested to see where Ford and Underhill stand for the following week.

It's easy to stick the NZ game up as the pinnacle but maybe SB is tending more towards longer-term progression i.e. counting the Argentina game as significant in preparation for the 6N. He's on a bit of a hiding to nothing because of the order of the AIs that the RFU have lumbered him with. Theoretically, with the Lions guys back, there should be significant measurable improvement in the Argentina game, assuming that he picks his 'best XV'.

Press reports mention tickets being given to clubs to boost the attendance for tomorrow to 70,000 whereas there was no difficulty in selling out the stadium for the other three matches.

Not how Statistical Boldselection thinks about it. He's talked before about the best XV over 80 mins and how that changes as the game plan evolves and players tire. He sees it as very much a 23 man game. The evolution we're seeing is a growing confidence in the overall squad which lends itself to those horses for courses selections that he prefers.

I'm expecting us to go pretty hard in all four games but to keep using the squad we've got. Wins and opportunities for squad players being key this autumn.

I accept what you suggest unless, at any point, your last sentence becomes contradictory. I doubt there is the slightest chance of any squad member getting a 'rotational' opportunity against NZ. Winning that game, like it or not, IS too important.

[Oakboy]

I am encouraged at how Borthwick is building depth and versatility in the squad . . . .

I certainly endorse that. He is becoming astute in 'world rugby' terms. I'd admit to having underestimated that attribute. Having said that, his coaching appointments for and after the Argentina tour were a good indication that he is way ahead of his predecessor in the planning sense.

[FKAS]

It's easy to stick the NZ game up as the pinnacle but maybe SB is tending more towards longer-term progression i.e. counting the Argentina game as significant in preparation for the 6N. He's on a bit of a hiding to nothing because of the order of the AIs that the RFU have lumbered him with. Theoretically, with the Lions guys back, there should be significant measurable improvement in the Argentina game, assuming that he picks his 'best XV'.

Press reports mention tickets being given to clubs to boost the attendance for tomorrow to 70,000 whereas there was no difficulty in selling out the stadium for the other three matches.

Not how Statistical Boldselection thinks about it. He's talked before about the best XV over 80 mins and how that changes as the game plan evolves and players tire. He sees it as very much a 23 man game. The evolution we're seeing is a growing confidence in the overall squad which lends itself to those horses for courses selections that he prefers.

I'm expecting us to go pretty hard in all four games but to keep using the squad we've got. Wins and opportunities for squad players being key this autumn.

I accept what you suggest unless, at any point, your last sentence becomes contradictory. I doubt there is the slightest chance of any squad member getting a 'rotational' opportunity against NZ. Winning that game, like it or not, IS too important.

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

[Oakboy]

Not how Statistical Boldselection thinks about it. He's talked before about the best XV over 80 mins and how that changes as the game plan evolves and players tire. He sees it as very much a 23 man game. The evolution we're seeing is a growing confidence in the overall squad which lends itself to those horses for courses selections that he prefers.

I'm expecting us to go pretty hard in all four games but to keep using the squad we've got. Wins and opportunities for squad players being key this autumn.

I accept what you suggest unless, at any point, your last sentence becomes contradictory. I doubt there is the slightest chance of any squad member getting a 'rotational' opportunity against NZ. Winning that game, like it or not, IS too important.

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

[FKAS]

I accept what you suggest unless, at any point, your last sentence becomes contradictory. I doubt there is the slightest chance of any squad member getting a 'rotational' opportunity against NZ. Winning that game, like it or not, IS too important.

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

Depends on what the bomb squad is set up to do. I doubt we'll see a bench like we had vs Australia but we might see a Genge and Heyes prop combo in the first half and then Baxter and Stuart in the second. CCS wearing 19 then TCurry and Polly in 20 and 21. Still have Itoje, Chessum, Pepper, Underhill and Earl to start but big impact on the bench.

As Strategic Blueprint likes to change the game plan based on the opposition it's the balance he'll want to strike. As you say he probably won't want to weight it to heavily either half as the All Blacks will be good across the 80 mins though he will probably be considering Robertson's favoured tactic of playing dual playmakers at 10/15 in the final half hour of games.

[Puja]

I accept what you suggest unless, at any point, your last sentence becomes contradictory. I doubt there is the slightest chance of any squad member getting a 'rotational' opportunity against NZ. Winning that game, like it or not, IS too important.

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

I mean, you say that, but we have faded 3 games from 3 against them, giving away commanding positions as their bench strengthened them and ours weakened us. Might not be a bad idea to start with the steady mob and then bring on Genge/LCD/Stuart to keep the energy up.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

I mean, you say that, but we have faded 3 games from 3 against them, giving away commanding positions as their bench strengthened them and ours weakened us. Might not be a bad idea to start with the steady mob and then bring on Genge/LCD/Stuart to keep the energy up.

Puja

Ah, it's all a bit airy-fairy for us on the outside looking in - we are speculating for fun, of course. To counter your concern based on past games, I suppose there are two factors where NZ may no longer have the edge over 80: 1. our players are fitter; 2. our depth is more solid and our bench, whoever is there/starting does not involve a major drop-off. In terms of NZ, maybe it's fair to only have concern about the 2nd row, perhaps? To give SB credit, Itoje on the bench for Fiji is a trial of that.

There are two general factors, for me. First, we need to constantly give them cause to fear us - Freeman, IFW, Roebuck at 13/11/14 for example. Second, we should kick accurately and intelligently (not speculatively). They need to be under pressure from us and we should not give them easy ball to counter-attack with. I know, to an extent that that is how it should always be but it just seems so much more important against them.

[Puja]

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

I mean, you say that, but we have faded 3 games from 3 against them, giving away commanding positions as their bench strengthened them and ours weakened us. Might not be a bad idea to start with the steady mob and then bring on Genge/LCD/Stuart to keep the energy up.

Puja

Ah, it's all a bit airy-fairy for us on the outside looking in - we are speculating for fun, of course. To counter your concern based on past games, I suppose there are two factors where NZ may no longer have the edge over 80: 1. our players are fitter; 2. our depth is more solid and our bench, whoever is there/starting does not involve a major drop-off. In terms of NZ, maybe it's fair to only have concern about the 2nd row, perhaps? To give SB credit, Itoje on the bench for Fiji is a trial of that.

There are two general factors, for me. First, we need to constantly give them cause to fear us - Freeman, IFW, Roebuck at 13/11/14 for example. Second, we should kick accurately and intelligently (not speculatively). They need to be under pressure from us and we should not give them easy ball to counter-attack with. I know, to an extent that that is how it should always be but it just seems so much more important against them.

Not unfair on all counts - I'd still mark Spencer as being an utter handbrake of a player to have coming off the bench, but it is very much a case of who the hells else is there. As long as we keep Mitchell fit and he can play 70 minutes, our bench is probably good enough.

Puja

[Beasties]

I think he'll pick a 23 based on neutralising what he perceives the strengths of NZ to be. He picked a backline to neuter the Wallaby kick chase and second half impact. He's picked a side that's well equipped to counter the Fijian tendency to kick long plus added size to the backrow to combat the Fijian carrying. Against NZ he'll adjust the squad again, that might give certain squad players a chance to shine if it's felt that they offer a strategic advantage.

I don't for a second think Borthwick will gamble with resting players Vs NZ though I wouldn't be surprised to see him load the bench like has done in these opening two games. Against Fiji it's not so pronounced but still having TCurry, Itoje, George and Arundell to come on in the second half is going to boost us.

Fours wins in the Autumn would be a strong statement heading into the 6N.

Does a 'bomb squad' have the same relevance against NZ as it did v Aus? I'd think the opposite could be the way to go i.e. get our strongest XV on the park to begin the match. A convincing start is essential. Matching them point for point in the 1st half seems essential. Giving them the chance to be out of sight by HT is a huge risk. Better that we get ahead and stay ahead.

I mean, you say that, but we have faded 3 games from 3 against them, giving away commanding positions as their bench strengthened them and ours weakened us. Might not be a bad idea to start with the steady mob and then bring on Genge/LCD/Stuart to keep the energy up.

Puja

The steady mob.
Ouch

[FKAS]

I mean, you say that, but we have faded 3 games from 3 against them, giving away commanding positions as their bench strengthened them and ours weakened us. Might not be a bad idea to start with the steady mob and then bring on Genge/LCD/Stuart to keep the energy up.

Puja

Ah, it's all a bit airy-fairy for us on the outside looking in - we are speculating for fun, of course. To counter your concern based on past games, I suppose there are two factors where NZ may no longer have the edge over 80: 1. our players are fitter; 2. our depth is more solid and our bench, whoever is there/starting does not involve a major drop-off. In terms of NZ, maybe it's fair to only have concern about the 2nd row, perhaps? To give SB credit, Itoje on the bench for Fiji is a trial of that.

There are two general factors, for me. First, we need to constantly give them cause to fear us - Freeman, IFW, Roebuck at 13/11/14 for example. Second, we should kick accurately and intelligently (not speculatively). They need to be under pressure from us and we should not give them easy ball to counter-attack with. I know, to an extent that that is how it should always be but it just seems so much more important against them.

Not unfair on all counts - I'd still mark Spencer as being an utter handbrake of a player to have coming off the bench, but it is very much a case of who the hells else is there. As long as we keep Mitchell fit and he can play 70 minutes, our bench is probably good enough.

Puja

Pray that JvP recovers in time?

I do think we've missed a trick not having a look at Potter though. Quirke is a good player but he's made of glass and those injuries have meant he's not really kicked on in a long time.