Six Nations Squad Announcement

[Puja]

From the England training videos they've got Ford, Dingwall, Freeman with Arundell on the wing and Steward at fullback. Over a week out, so could just be that days line up for training.

I would be happy with that. IMO, it'd be madness to drop Dingwall, especislly if we're planning on playing Freeman at 13. He's one of our most consistent presences in the backline over the last year, the most experienced, the best defensive organiser, and such a consistent player. I can understand the excitement over SAtkinson and he can do things which Dingwall can't, but that comes with inconsistency and mistakes - I'm not yet convinced that he's not 12T MkII, and I'm not keen on handing him starts until he's demanding them.

Puja

[p/d]

He has been demanding starts for over 2 seasons.

But hey-ho let’s go safe

[Which Tyler]

And did well when given a chance.
Same for Ojomoh.

IMO, the three of them are close enough, to simply trust what the coaches are seeing in training - if playing Freeman at 13 again, then Dingwall does make more sense.

Personally, with Lawrence out, then against Wales and Italy, I'd very seriously consider playing 2 of Atkinson, Dingwall & Ojomoh - the latter 2 are equally comfortable in either centre berth, and it seems a good opportunity to get some game time into all of them, and see if anyone cracks.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Wouldn’t disagree at all. Hence for Wales I’d stay Seb and bring Max off the bench. Scotland might be different still. We might want Freeman on the wing against Scotland, for example.

[Puja]

He has been demanding starts for over 2 seasons.

But hey-ho let’s go safe

Hmmm. He's also been occasionally shitting the bed for 2 seasons and it remains to be seen if his pros outweigh his cons at a higher level than playing against Prem defences or a weakened Argentina side. Safe does not necessarily mean boring and ineffective - Dingwall was an integral part of the backline that opened up New Zealand like a tin can and I remain baffled that people are keen to bin him off after he's played so well.

IMO, the three of them are close enough, to simply trust what the coaches are seeing in training.

I'd agree with this. If Stims Beatbox picks any 2 out of SAtkinson, Ojomoh, Dingwall and Freeman in the centres, then I'm not gonna be up in arms about it and will IBWT it as a judgement call.

Puja

[p/d]

Wouldn’t disagree at all. Hence for Wales I’d stay Seb and bring Max off the bench. Scotland might be different still. We might want Freeman on the wing against Scotland, for example.

Yep. Agree. Ford with Seb MK1 started to look pretty special v Pumas, and not do I have any objection to Dingers getting the nod. Just prefer Freeman on wing

[Danno]

I'm struggling to argue with anything on this page.

And that's brilliant, given the length of time we've been screaming at each other about centres (I'll suggest ten years, which is when I joined the forum, but 21 years is more realistic)

[p/d]

Can’t help thinking Steward at 12 should be tried
.
.
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anthing Danno?

[Danno]

Can’t help thinking Steward at 12 should be tried
.
.
.
anthing Danno?

I swear you're trying to be the JNGF of the backline

[francoisfou]

Can’t help thinking Steward at 12 should be tried
.
.
.
anthing Danno?

Ffs!

[Puja]

Can’t help thinking Steward at 12 should be tried
.
.
.
anthing Danno?

Ffs!

No! Anything but Ford/Farrell/Slade. Not again, please!

Puja

[FKAS]

Can’t help thinking Steward at 12 should be tried
.
.
.
anthing Danno?

Ffs!

No! Anything but Ford/Farrell/Slade. Not again, please!

Puja

Unlike Farrell and Slade, Steward could at least be relied to hit a hard line for the flyhalf to play off of. That's not me endorsing him to centre just noting that he does run a good line and more often than not is used almost like a third centre for Tigers, particularly when Kata is playing.

[Puja]

Ffs!

No! Anything but Ford/Farrell/Slade. Not again, please!

Puja

Unlike Farrell and Slade, Steward could at least be relied to hit a hard line for the flyhalf to play off of. That's not me endorsing him to centre just noting that he does run a good line and more often than not is used almost like a third centre for Tigers, particularly when Kata is playing.

I mean, when Kata is playing, it's probably more accurate to say that Steward's used by Tigers like a second centre.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

Underhill out then? Am I alone feeling he’s basically a nailed on starter for England, even at Curry’s expense?

I would have Underhill and Pepper on the flanks until performance determines otherwise. Having Curry come off the bench was a huge energy lift in Autumn. Like the centres, I would however be happy with (pretty much) any combination of Curry, Pepper, Underhill, Earl and Pollock in the back row.

With props, are others cautious about having Rodd and Sela come on to finish big games? I would personally prefer Genge / Sela and Rodd / Heyes as the combos - likely with the first pair starting.

[charlesdeboeuf]

Underhill out then? Am I alone feeling he’s basically a nailed on starter for England, even at Curry’s expense?

I would have Underhill and Pepper on the flanks until performance determines otherwise. Having Curry come off the bench was a huge energy lift in Autumn. Like the centres, I would however be happy with (pretty much) any combination of Curry, Pepper, Underhill, Earl and Pollock in the back row.

With props, are others cautious about having Rodd and Sela come on to finish big games? I would personally prefer Genge / Sela and Rodd / Heyes as the combos - likely with the first pair starting.

Not too concerned on the prop front. Would be a different story if we had SA and NZ to face but most other 6N teams are struggling with prop injuries. The only team I'm cautious of is France but with Antonio's retirement and Baille not the same post-injury, I'm not too worried as things stand. Plus, we've already seen how Sela can manage Gros, their first choice LH!

[Puja]

Underhill out then? Am I alone feeling he’s basically a nailed on starter for England, even at Curry’s expense?

I would have Underhill and Pepper on the flanks until performance determines otherwise. Having Curry come off the bench was a huge energy lift in Autumn. Like the centres, I would however be happy with (pretty much) any combination of Curry, Pepper, Underhill, Earl and Pollock in the back row.

With props, are others cautious about having Rodd and Sela come on to finish big games? I would personally prefer Genge / Sela and Rodd / Heyes as the combos - likely with the first pair starting.

Sela starting!?! Gods below and everburning - that's an invitation to disaster. No matter how promising a player he is or how average Wales are, he has had *6* starts in adult first team rugby (10 if you want to count Prem Rugby Cup games). I'm already not keen on the idea of bringing him off the bench at that level of experience, but pitching him in against a fresh Nicky Smith is an arrant gamble and I'd be terrified of damaging a generational talent with that kind of thing.

Puja

[pjm1]

No! Anything but Ford/Farrell/Slade. Not again, please!

Puja

Unlike Farrell and Slade, Steward could at least be relied to hit a hard line for the flyhalf to play off of. That's not me endorsing him to centre just noting that he does run a good line and more often than not is used almost like a third centre for Tigers, particularly when Kata is playing.

I mean, when Kata is playing, it's probably more accurate to say that Steward's used by Tigers like a second centre.

Puja

Quality!

I think, as a supporter group, we are forever destined to find something to get annoyed and disappointed about. As has been said, we're blessed with some really high quality options pretty much across the XV.

Front Row - down to the bare bones on props, but still able to field an international class front 3 and pretty exciting replacements.
2R - international class 23 options, with more in the wings (figuratively)
BR - Possibly the best collective group in the world (not individually, I'll admit)
SH - Hasn't been strong for years, but our starter is excellent and replacement adequate
FH - Injuries and we still have 2 excellent options
Centres - finally... we have 4 really exciting and fairly reliable options, who are playing well. Each offers a different blend of excitement vs reliability
Wings - absolutely stacked
FB - Two very different options, both capable of doing an excellent job of what they excel at

Yet reading some of the comments here, we're back in the doldrums with selections that are "just unbelievable". Let's rein in the hyperbole and hopefully agree that the choice of players will likely matter far less than the tactics they use and how they play as units. They'll make individual errors, but if we get the plan right, way more good stuff will happen than bad. And that's how you win games.

[SixAndAHalf]

Underhill out then? Am I alone feeling he’s basically a nailed on starter for England, even at Curry’s expense?

I would have Underhill and Pepper on the flanks until performance determines otherwise. Having Curry come off the bench was a huge energy lift in Autumn. Like the centres, I would however be happy with (pretty much) any combination of Curry, Pepper, Underhill, Earl and Pollock in the back row.

With props, are others cautious about having Rodd and Sela come on to finish big games? I would personally prefer Genge / Sela and Rodd / Heyes as the combos - likely with the first pair starting.

Sela starting!?! Gods below and everburning - that's an invitation to disaster. No matter how promising a player he is or how average Wales are, he has had *6* starts in adult first team rugby (10 if you want to count Prem Rugby Cup games). I'm already not keen on the idea of bringing him off the bench at that level of experience, but pitching him in against a fresh Nicky Smith is an arrant gamble and I'd be terrified of damaging a generational talent with that kind of thing.

Puja

I agree with all of the above but think starting him and taking him off at 40-45 mins protects him more than bringing him on for the last 20 - you can ultimately take him off earlier if it isn't going well.

[Puja]

I would have Underhill and Pepper on the flanks until performance determines otherwise. Having Curry come off the bench was a huge energy lift in Autumn. Like the centres, I would however be happy with (pretty much) any combination of Curry, Pepper, Underhill, Earl and Pollock in the back row.

With props, are others cautious about having Rodd and Sela come on to finish big games? I would personally prefer Genge / Sela and Rodd / Heyes as the combos - likely with the first pair starting.

Sela starting!?! Gods below and everburning - that's an invitation to disaster. No matter how promising a player he is or how average Wales are, he has had *6* starts in adult first team rugby (10 if you want to count Prem Rugby Cup games). I'm already not keen on the idea of bringing him off the bench at that level of experience, but pitching him in against a fresh Nicky Smith is an arrant gamble and I'd be terrified of damaging a generational talent with that kind of thing.

Puja

I agree with all of the above but think starting him and taking him off at 40-45 mins protects him more than bringing him on for the last 20 - you can ultimately take him off earlier if it isn't going well.

Thoroughly disagree. If we are going to use him, which I'm far from convinced is a good idea, he wants to be coming on against a team that has been running around for 60 minutes, playing against their lesser prop who is backed up by a tired pack, hopefully with us 20 points up, the ref on our side in the scrums, and the fight knocked out of them. We don't want to be putting him up against their first choice, at the peak of fitness, amped up by the energy of the crowd and the optimism of the start of the tournament when everything's still possible.

Plus keeping him on the bench allows them to limit his gametime significantly if injury allows - Heyes can go 70 if needs be and they can judge how much they want to give him based on the state of the game and the state of the Welsh pack . If you start him, then he's got to play 45 minutes or else it becomes a **thing** of him having got the shepherd's crook early for underperforming, even if it was pre-planned.

That's not to mention the psychological pressure that comes with a starting shirt - no matter what the fashion of "Bomb Squads" and "finishers", a number 3 shirt weighs more than a number 18. No, I can't believe it'd be a good idea to start him. If he is absolutely demanding a shirt in training, then put him on the bench. But no way in hells should he be starting. If we want any evidence, just look at the mess that Wales made of Archie Griffin's confidence.

Puja

[SixAndAHalf]

I also agree re it not being ideal to overplay young props - but if he's in the squad then you have to assume they are ready to use him.

I hope we are 20 points up with 20 to go but there is also the risk that we are in a close game and bringing on Rodd plus Sela / Davison together which doesn't fill me with confidence. I can see the logic in the view that the way the tournament plays out we have 4 games until France so we can build up experience gradually and maybe I am being too cautious in not writing off Wales giving us a tough game!

[Which Tyler]

Amazingly, I'm 100% with Puja on this
I can see the logic in splitting our better props, so pairing Sela with Genge, and Rodd with Heyes - and in that case, you absolutely start Rodd&Heyes.
If we're looking at benching Heyes, and starting someone else at THP, then that's the entire purpose of having Davison in the squad.

Sela is bench at best for this 6N - and TBH, I'd only want him there against Wales or Italy; and I'm uncomfortable with him being that far up this soon.

[Danno]

Unlike Farrell and Slade, Steward could at least be relied to hit a hard line for the flyhalf to play off of. That's not me endorsing him to centre just noting that he does run a good line and more often than not is used almost like a third centre for Tigers, particularly when Kata is playing.

I mean, when Kata is playing, it's probably more accurate to say that Steward's used by Tigers like a second centre.

Puja

Quality!

I think, as a supporter group, we are forever destined to find something to get annoyed and disappointed about. As has been said, we're blessed with some really high quality options pretty much across the XV.

Front Row - down to the bare bones on props, but still able to field an international class front 3 and pretty exciting replacements.
2R - international class 23 options, with more in the wings (figuratively)
BR - Possibly the best collective group in the world (not individually, I'll admit)
SH - Hasn't been strong for years, but our starter is excellent and replacement adequate
FH - Injuries and we still have 2 excellent options
Centres - finally... we have 4 really exciting and fairly reliable options, who are playing well. Each offers a different blend of excitement vs reliability
Wings - absolutely stacked
FB - Two very different options, both capable of doing an excellent job of what they excel at

Yet reading some of the comments here, we're back in the doldrums with selections that are "just unbelievable". Let's rein in the hyperbole and hopefully agree that the choice of players will likely matter far less than the tactics they use and how they play as units. They'll make individual errors, but if we get the plan right, way more good stuff will happen than bad. And that's how you win games.

We can't be seeing this sort of positivity on the Internet. Ban this sick filth!

[Scrumhead]

Amazingly, I'm 100% with Puja on this
I can see the logic in splitting our better props, so pairing Sela with Genge, and Rodd with Heyes - and in that case, you absolutely start Rodd&Heyes.
If we're looking at benching Heyes, and starting someone else at THP, then that's the entire purpose of having Davison in the squad.

Sela is bench at best for this 6N - and TBH, I'd only want him there against Wales or Italy; and I'm uncomfortable with him being that far up this soon.

Totally agree on the bolded. I’d also be looking at George in the 16 shirt as a super experienced, calming influence.

I don’t agree quite as strongly on the last sentence. I’m not totally comfortable with the idea of him being ‘that far up’, but I’m more inclined to reserve judgement. If he plays against Wales and does well, I’d be more inclined to keep him involved rather than revert to Davison who is no more than a stop gap.

As @Puja mentioned earlier in the thread, most of the other sides have been hit pretty hard by injuries to their frontline props. I wouldn’t want Sela up against Schoeman or Nicky Smith but I’d back him against almost all of the second choice props - or 5th choice in Ireland’s case.

[Oakboy]

I'm never comfortable with selecting a bench with the idea of giving a player experience for the last 20. IMO, every single player in the 23 must be a credible option for 80. Shit happens. Pick Sela ONLY if you are happy with him coming on in the 2nd minute as injury replacement.

[Scrumhead]

I hear you but the question I’m asking myself is whether I’m any more comfortable with Davison playing 80 and the short answer is probably no.

There are totally different reasons for my discomfort. It’s too soon for Sela and arguably it’s too late for Davison. One possibly isn’t quite good enough yet, the other possibly won’t ever reach that standard.

For a one off game, Davison would probably get the nod but otherwise, I’d back giving the game time to Sela.