Scotland vs England - Sat 4.40pm

[Danno]

That was pathetic. I'm really pissed off.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Englands game is based upon aerial dominance which we did not get today. I think today exposed that we don’t have much of a Plan B. The breakdown was also inaccurate partly due to the refereeing.

Great teams are able to win these games even when the Plan A fails. For me with this England team we need to get more A+ carriers in there. Tom Willis is a huge miss but I would have Pollock, Lawrence and MSmith/Furbank/Hendy in for Underhill, Dingers and Steward. Today also showed how we miss IFW vs our other wings.

That’s Borthwick for you though. And I’m not throwing him under a bus, but he’s not an adaptive coach. We will no adapt or coadapt under Borthwick. He is a percentage coach in terms of game plan. The nuance is down to the specific coaches, that’s why we kept kicking even though it was obviously not working.

Our game will grow and we’ll get better at all round play, and specific aspects, but we won’t be adaptive. That’s not him.

[Spiffy]

In addition to Ford, England need another playmaker/footballer in midfield at either 12 or 13.

[p/d]

England flattered to deceive last week being given the game by Wales/the ref. Perhaps they're just not as good as we thought they'd be.

Bingo!!! Exactly that.

[Stom]

Englands game is based upon aerial dominance which we did not get today. I think today exposed that we don’t have much of a Plan B. The breakdown was also inaccurate partly due to the refereeing.

Great teams are able to win these games even when the Plan A fails. For me with this England team we need to get more A+ carriers in there. Tom Willis is a huge miss but I would have Pollock, Lawrence and MSmith/Furbank/Hendy in for Underhill, Dingers and Steward. Today also showed how we miss IFW vs our other wings.

The thing is, in terms of carrying, Steward was really good second half.

But his performance in the first half was awful.

And those individual mistakes across the team cost us.

Yes, bring Furbank or MSmith onto the bench, or drop Steward altogether, it won’t make a big difference unless you adapt to what’s happening in front of you

[Epaminondas Pules]

In addition to Ford, England need another playmaker/footballer in midfield at either 12 or 13.

Like Seb Atkinson

[Epaminondas Pules]

Englands game is based upon aerial dominance which we did not get today. I think today exposed that we don’t have much of a Plan B. The breakdown was also inaccurate partly due to the refereeing.

Great teams are able to win these games even when the Plan A fails. For me with this England team we need to get more A+ carriers in there. Tom Willis is a huge miss but I would have Pollock, Lawrence and MSmith/Furbank/Hendy in for Underhill, Dingers and Steward. Today also showed how we miss IFW vs our other wings.

The thing is, in terms of carrying, Steward was really good second half.

But his performance in the first half was awful.

And those individual mistakes across the team cost us.

Yes, bring Furbank or MSmith onto the bench, or drop Steward altogether, it won’t make a big difference unless you adapt to what’s happening in front of you

We’re not an adaptive side, nor do we coach adaption. Watch the U20s and their inability to adapt to the game. We’re a statistical team. Which in itself is fine, until the opposition do something different.

[FKAS]

Englands game is based upon aerial dominance which we did not get today. I think today exposed that we don’t have much of a Plan B. The breakdown was also inaccurate partly due to the refereeing.

Great teams are able to win these games even when the Plan A fails. For me with this England team we need to get more A+ carriers in there. Tom Willis is a huge miss but I would have Pollock, Lawrence and MSmith/Furbank/Hendy in for Underhill, Dingers and Steward. Today also showed how we miss IFW vs our other wings.

The thing is, in terms of carrying, Steward was really good second half.

But his performance in the first half was awful.

And those individual mistakes across the team cost us.

Yes, bring Furbank or MSmith onto the bench, or drop Steward altogether, it won’t make a big difference unless you adapt to what’s happening in front of you

Steward was the best of our back three by a distance. After Mitchell probably our best back. Roebuck and Arundell couldn't contest effectively forcing us to kick longer. Roebuck and Arundell made errors that cost us points. I'd look at our wings first.

I'm not really sure what Marcus is the answer for? Was poor off the bench last weekend, would have been targeted in air Vs Scotland and has been struggling all season. Furbank is constantly injured and did someone seriously suggest Hendy as an international fullback? He has issues dealing with the aerial battle at club level.

This is the problem for Simply Boxkick currently. He's lost several difference makers to injury, poor form or lifestyle change. Not impacting the XV too badly but when you look at the bench it's lacking the impact we saw in the Autumn and towards the end of the last 6N. Rodd and Davison are a significant drop off from Baxter and Stuart. Coles is a good starter at international level now but isn't really and impact player. Spencer slows the game. There's a heavy reliance on TCurry and Pollock to change the England intensity.

[p/d]

We’re not an adaptive side, nor do we coach adaption. Watch the U20s and their inability to adapt to the game. We’re a statistical team. Which in itself is fine, until the opposition do something different.

Spot on EP.

And maligning performances of some to enhance the value of others just rubs salt in the self inflicted wound.

[Mikey Brown]

Wowee there is some embarrassing stuff written in the last couple of pages. That felt far more comprehensive than 11 points to be honest.

A rough day for England, but a bit of a reality check and I don’t think a complete catastrophe as some have painted it. I look forward to see who comes out firing against Ireland.

The psychological block side of things is intriguing. Irish fans are already talking down their chances in this tournament and the likelihood of losing to Scotland, but I see a similar issue with Scotland facing Ireland as England seem to have in recent years facing Scotland. Once it’s in your head it’s in your head I guess.

[Galfon]

Scotland played ok and took their chances - England however deserved to lose;
unforced handling errors in attacking positions, 2 brain-f@rt errors (Genge, Ford) and just not playing much rugby with ball in hand -
kicking the ball in the air contnuously is a really bad watch when defended effectively.
The 30 mins player-down for Arundell's iffy misdemeanours seemed overly punitive and probably tipped the game.
Eng are quite capable of losing the remaining fixtures if they manage to repeat this sort of showing.
You'd think they would learn a bit from the last 25 years or so about starting cold at Murrayfield.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel for Genge on the fumbled ball for the try. I don’t think you’d expect many props to even be there to deal with that.

[Danno]

Come on Smooth Buttwank, what are the postives/learnings/lessons/tutorials to take out of that one

[twitchy]

I just think scotland are the kryptonite to our specific game plan. It still works very well against other teams. It was frustrating yesterday, but I am not as down as others. I am reading some silly headlines this morning.

[Oakboy]

I think the team not matching Scotland for application and grit right from the off is an unforgiveable flaw in the coaching preparation. Scotland being up for it is a surprise to whom? They did not need to outplay us. They overwhelmed us psychologically to the point where we underperformed collectively.

Even when that starts to happen, if the players are good enough character-wise, the tide can be turned. It requires top professional concentration and pure guts. It requires discipline and a will to cut out mistakes.

Instead we saw a lack of leadership, innacuracy and individual errors. Right from the start we missed tackles and our defence looked porous.

Some posters are taking the 'just a blip' line on the defeat ignoring the manner of it. I think the game exposed fundamental flaws. The 23 individuals did not turn into bad players overnight but when a crunch challenge materialised quite a few were found wanting. I'd question the future selection of Davison, Underhill, Spencer, Dingwall, Ford, Arundell and Roebuck. Some or all might be capable of recovering their worth but alternatives might be preferable.

I suggest that 6:2 should be buried and forgotten. The irony of Townsend being criticised pre-match for deciding on 5:3 is somewhat tart now!!

The main tactic of requiring Mitchell to kick so much needs reviewing, as does backing up with Spencer who kicks more. Where was the plan B once Scotland gobbled up the kicks, so-called contestable or not?

Before the match, I declared that I was losing my reservations about Borthwick. Boy, have they resurfaced now. I'd suggest that it was one of the peak cases of being out-coached. If he has a believable excuse for it, somebody needs to explain it to me.

[Epaminondas Pules]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

[fivepointer]

I think the team not matching Scotland for application and grit right from the off is an unforgiveable flaw in the coaching preparation. Scotland being up for it is a surprise to whom? They did not need to outplay us. They overwhelmed us psychologically to the point where we underperformed collectively.

Even when that starts to happen, if the players are good enough character-wise, the tide can be turned. It requires top professional concentration and pure guts. It requires discipline and a will to cut out mistakes.

Instead we saw a lack of leadership, innacuracy and individual errors. Right from the start we missed tackles and our defence looked porous.

Some posters are taking the 'just a blip' line on the defeat ignoring the manner of it. I think the game exposed fundamental flaws. The 23 individuals did not turn into bad players overnight but when a crunch challenge materialised quite a few were found wanting. I'd question the future selection of Davison, Underhill, Spencer, Dingwall, Ford, Arundell and Roebuck. Some or all might be capable of recovering their worth but alternatives might be preferable.

I suggest that 6:2 should be buried and forgotten. The irony of Townsend being criticised pre-match for deciding on 5:3 is somewhat tart now!!

The main tactic of requiring Mitchell to kick so much needs reviewing, as does backing up with Spencer who kicks more. Where was the plan B once Scotland gobbled up the kicks, so-called contestable or not?

Before the match, I declared that I was losing my reservations about Borthwick. Boy, have they resurfaced now. I'd suggest that it was one of the peak cases of being out-coached. If he has a believable excuse for it, somebody needs to explain it to me.

Pretty obvious that we needed to match fire with fire in the first quarter. Frankly that is non negotiable. The lack of intensity was a bad sign from the off.

One poor performance doesnt make us a bad team but it does throw up worrying questions about some of the personnel and the tactics we employ.

Another worry is the form of our captain. Coming off on the hour mark is not what you'd expect but he looked flat up until then.

[SixAndAHalf]

I feel for Genge on the fumbled ball for the try. I don’t think you’d expect many props to even be there to deal with that.

Agree with this. Will get a lot of focus but there were about 5 missed tackles in the build up.

However I feel Genges head hasn’t been in the right place in these two games. Has seemed quite angry despite coming into the series in amazing form.

[Stom]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

[Which Tyler]

Just felt like one of those game where absolutely nothing went for us - the reffing decisions, the bounce of the ball, every time where someone got one hand to to the ball and another day it sticks, today it bounced off, while pretty much everything Scotland tried stuck. The White try was a perfect example - 99 times out of 100, Genge slides onto that and secures the ball, but today it bobbles at the wrong time and we're back to 17 points behind again just as we were cut the deficit and starting to get our heads up.

We were shit. Scotland were great. I don't think it's worth chucking the baby out with the bathwater, demanding changes, or particularly judging individuals based on that game - bad day at the office and hopefully some lessons learned for the youngsters. The only change i'd make for Ireland is to recall George as we need the solid base to start the game from - everyone else gets the chance to redeem themselves.

Exactly right IMO.
We had a bad day at the office, whilst Scotland had a good one - as always seems to happen when these to play over the last decade or so.
Added to which, Amashukeli had the worst day at the office I've seen from him, and sheer damn luck played a big part.

I've seen the doom mongers out in force, the "borthwick Out" the "Every match is worse than the last" and the "Never Ford/Steward/Henge etc" posts, but I've yet to see one that makes sense to what we've actually seen happening in front of us.

Our level isn't as high as last week, or as low as this week, it's somewhere in-between.
We're neither a great team, nor a terrible team.
Our current peak is probably 3rd in the world, our depth is probably 7th (behind SA and Fra, fighting NZ, Aus, Arg and Ire) our current trajectory is upwards, but not absent of set-backs

[FKAS]

I feel for Genge on the fumbled ball for the try. I don’t think you’d expect many props to even be there to deal with that.

Agree with this. Will get a lot of focus but there were about 5 missed tackles in the build up.

However I feel Genges head hasn’t been in the right place in these two games. Has seemed quite angry despite coming into the series in amazing form.

Feels like he's trying too hard. It's pretty obvious that Itoje is struggling (understandably so) and so he wants to stand up and be that leader. He probably just needs to settle down and relax a bit. He delivered emphatically at scrum time, Joe Heyes on the other side had Macbeth and Shoeman on toast as well.

England really did snatch at chances and were just off, lacking that clinical edge. Scotland made hay whilst we were a man down and then were brilliant backs against the wall.

[Oakboy]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

I agree with your conclusion. Scotland did nothing out of the ordinary within the context of frequent recent meetings at Murrayfield. How could SB NOT expect them to play exactly the way they did? The team was so clearly not ready for what was definitely going to happem.

I thought the Scotland application would be how it was and that we would be prepared to match them.

[Mikey Brown]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

[p/d]

We are an average to good team with an average to good coach.

The bounce of the ball or poor reffing don’t change that. They are simply excuses for our rinse and repeat game plan.

[francoisfou]

Subconsciously, England undoubtedly felt overconfident after the emphatic win over Wales so I hold Stretched Braincells (senior players too) well and truly responsible for the totally inadequate mindset before yesterday’s debacle. As has been mentioned above, they knew that they what was going to hit them in the opening 15/20 minutes and were woefully unprepared.
The replacement props just weren’t up to it either so maybe now’s the moment to give one or two young’uns the chance against the faltering Irish?