Scotland vs England - Sat 4.40pm

[Banquo]

We are an average to good team with an average to good coach.

The bounce of the ball or poor reffing don’t change that. They are simply excuses for our rinse and repeat game plan.

Yes, plus we bottled it imo. Or ‘the occasion got to us’.

To go to Murrayfield and not expect a bit of ferocity and chaos is poor preparation- and then feeding it with a load of 50/50 possession kicks which they won 100% of for the first 30 was pretty dumb. Both half backs should take the blame for that- Mitchell’s first kick after a 20 yard maul still going forward was mad.

Then we totally failed to match their intensity at the breakdown and in the carry, causing us problems both sides of the ball.

Add in being down to 14 for 30 mins, and you have a stuffing, only ameliorated by scrum dominance.

Tae think again seems apposite.

[Oakboy]

We are an average to good team with an average to good coach.

The bounce of the ball or poor reffing don’t change that. They are simply excuses for our rinse and repeat game plan.

Yes, plus we bottled it imo. Or ‘the occasion got to us’.

To go to Murrayfield and not expect a bit of ferocity and chaos is poor preparation- and then feeding it with a load of 50/50 possession kicks which they won 100% of for the first 30 was pretty dumb. Both half backs should take the blame for that- Mitchell’s first kick after a 20 yard maul still going forward was mad.

Then we totally failed to match their intensity at the breakdown and in the carry, causing us problems both sides of the ball.

Add in being down to 14 for 30 mins, and you have a stuffing, only ameliorated by scrum dominance.

Tae think again seems apposite.

Quite and WELCOME BACK!

[p/d]

We are an average to good team with an average to good coach.

The bounce of the ball or poor reffing don’t change that. They are simply excuses for our rinse and repeat game plan.

Yes, plus we bottled it imo. Or ‘the occasion got to us’.

To go to Murrayfield and not expect a bit of ferocity and chaos is poor preparation- and then feeding it with a load of 50/50 possession kicks which they won 100% of for the first 30 was pretty dumb. Both half backs should take the blame for that- Mitchell’s first kick after a 20 yard maul still going forward was mad.

Then we totally failed to match their intensity at the breakdown and in the carry, causing us problems both sides of the ball.

Add in being down to 14 for 30 mins, and you have a stuffing, only ameliorated by scrum dominance.

Tae think again seems apposite.

Hey-ho banquo!!!!
Great to see you back (though reminding of that Mitchell kick was unnecessary )

[Mikey Brown]

You must be pleased with Dingwall in general - certainly last week?

Freeman at 13 then?

His ability to beat defenders and make tough metres with both footwork and physicality is kind of invaluable, but do we make enough of that in attack to balance issues in other areas? Do we lose any of that by him being on the wing anyway? His aerial skills are more use out there too?

Defence for Ritchie try he got absolutely chumped by Jones’s run, but who hasn’t at this point? Lawrence tackles very well but I’m not totally sure where we are on his defensive positioning in moments like this? Again he simply seems to have a lot of the same weaknesses as Freeman.

In terms of retaining some physical firepower I think Lawrence is the only contender. Otherwise it would be Atkinson in, but I don’t think Dingwall deserves to lose his spot at 12 at all. Is bringing Lawrence in because of distribution and defensive positioning a goer?

Persist with the good he offers at 13 or use Arundell’s poor performance as a chance to shift him back to the wing?

[Stom]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

[Stom]

Englands game is based upon aerial dominance which we did not get today. I think today exposed that we don’t have much of a Plan B. The breakdown was also inaccurate partly due to the refereeing.

Great teams are able to win these games even when the Plan A fails. For me with this England team we need to get more A+ carriers in there. Tom Willis is a huge miss but I would have Pollock, Lawrence and MSmith/Furbank/Hendy in for Underhill, Dingers and Steward. Today also showed how we miss IFW vs our other wings.

The thing is, in terms of carrying, Steward was really good second half.

But his performance in the first half was awful.

And those individual mistakes across the team cost us.

Yes, bring Furbank or MSmith onto the bench, or drop Steward altogether, it won’t make a big difference unless you adapt to what’s happening in front of you

Steward was the best of our back three by a distance. After Mitchell probably our best back. Roebuck and Arundell couldn't contest effectively forcing us to kick longer. Roebuck and Arundell made errors that cost us points. I'd look at our wings first.

I'm not really sure what Marcus is the answer for? Was poor off the bench last weekend, would have been targeted in air Vs Scotland and has been struggling all season. Furbank is constantly injured and did someone seriously suggest Hendy as an international fullback? He has issues dealing with the aerial battle at club level.

This is the problem for Simply Boxkick currently. He's lost several difference makers to injury, poor form or lifestyle change. Not impacting the XV too badly but when you look at the bench it's lacking the impact we saw in the Autumn and towards the end of the last 6N. Rodd and Davison are a significant drop off from Baxter and Stuart. Coles is a good starter at international level now but isn't really and impact player. Spencer slows the game. There's a heavy reliance on TCurry and Pollock to change the England intensity.

Was a bit muddled from me. My overall point was that we can’t really change that performance by changing players.

I had two secondary points, one was that I never want to see a 6:2 split with FSmith in the 23 shirt again.

The other is that I still just think steward’s mistakes, like his first 20 minutes, negate the good he does later in the game.

I want one thing: make your tackles, if you get to the ball first, keep hold of it, don’t get out of position, don’t lose the ball in contact. Keep it simple stupid.

It’s another reason I would like Genge dropped, as he does the same, lots of good and some absolute brain farts.

But in both of these cases, there’s no one else. And it’s frustrating.

For a coach who is all about structure and playing to a base level, we make a lot of basic mistakes under pressure. In fact, we fall apart under pressure.

As I said before, I think Itoje needs a rest. Give George the captaincy and go from there, Maro needs a mental break, as he’s having a negative impact on the team right now.

[Oakboy]

It was a test. SB failed it. He still might be the future but there is now more doubt.

[Which Tyler]

Which isn’t good enough

Ouch
I mean, true. But still
Ouch

[p/d]

It was a test. SB failed it. He still might be the future but there is now more doubt.

You won’t like it but, in the backs, we should have built on the Ford/Atkinson axis, Lawrence/Ojomoh and developed Freeman as fb cover rather than clogging up the 13 channel

[p/d]

And I should add I think Freeman a first class winger

[Epaminondas Pules]

We are an average to good team with an average to good coach.

The bounce of the ball or poor reffing don’t change that. They are simply excuses for our rinse and repeat game plan.

Yes, plus we bottled it imo. Or ‘the occasion got to us’.

To go to Murrayfield and not expect a bit of ferocity and chaos is poor preparation- and then feeding it with a load of 50/50 possession kicks which they won 100% of for the first 30 was pretty dumb. Both half backs should take the blame for that- Mitchell’s first kick after a 20 yard maul still going forward was mad.

Then we totally failed to match their intensity at the breakdown and in the carry, causing us problems both sides of the ball.

Add in being down to 14 for 30 mins, and you have a stuffing, only ameliorated by scrum dominance.

Tae think again seems apposite.

As I’ve said, this was the tone setter! And this is playing to a plan not what is happening! You only box kick that momentum if you’ve been told to box kick! It is statistical coaching not game feel! Mitchell is too good a player to do that unless it is a clear instruction!

[FKAS]

It was a test. SB failed it. He still might be the future but there is now more doubt.

You won’t like it but, in the backs, we should have built on the Ford/Atkinson axis, Lawrence/Ojomoh and developed Freeman as fb cover rather than clogging up the 13 channel

Freeman does have the limited passing game England demand at OC let alone what's demanded at 15.

[SixAndAHalf]

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

I think the Southgate comparison is a reasonable one - however the question for Borthers now is whether he can do what Southgate couldn’t and take us up another level following a set back.

We have a strong and improving set piece and the aerial game and D is usually reliable. What needs work for me is the attack.

We struggle to get momentum in games like that where we can’t heavily depend upon other strengths (eg kicking) - not sure there are any large forward ball carrying options with the absence of Tom Willis (eg like South Africa and France do in the tight 5) so we have to look at other ways of doing it. Primarily for me that is adding carry threat in the backline which points to Lawrence with a second playmaker at 15.

[Stom]

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

I think the Southgate comparison is a reasonable one - however the question for Borthers now is whether he can do what Southgate couldn’t and take us up another level following a set back.

We have a strong and improving set piece and the aerial game and D is usually reliable. What needs work for me is the attack.

We struggle to get momentum in games like that where we can’t heavily depend upon other strengths (eg kicking) - not sure there are any large forward ball carrying options with the absence of Tom Willis (eg like South Africa and France do in the tight 5) so we have to look at other ways of doing it. Primarily for me that is adding carry threat in the backline which points to Lawrence with a second playmaker at 15.

The thing for me isn’t any of this. We perform perfectly good in 9/10 games. But that 1 where the opposition brings the intensity, we fall apart. Whether that’s France, SA, or Scotland in Scotland.

That points, to me, to a preparation issue, just like England football had: nor enough tactical strength to turn up against the best. Southgate never won a game against a team ranked higher than us, and in the last 4 years never lost a game against a team ranked lower than us.

It feels the same.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

Sorry if that came across snarkier than intended. I think it did.

I feel like I agree with most of that. I’m just not sure I got much of that from your previous post.

Has all this recent hype around England been a bit of a false dawn, is that winning streak just luck or has Borthwick been figured out to some degree?

[Stom]

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

Sorry if that came across snarkier than intended. I think it did.

I feel like I agree with most of that. I’m just not sure I got much of that from your previous post.

Has all this recent hype around England been a bit of a false dawn, is that winning streak just luck or has Borthwick been figured out to some degree?

That’s fair. And I think that’s in part due to me poorly expressing myself sans partly due to the coverage of England and the idea that we’re suddenly world beaters.

There is one other thing to keep in mind: this is a post Lions year. Our key players have been playing non stop for ages. They need a rest.

[Oakboy]

One classic stat quote from the commentator at one stage was '8 entries into the Scottish 22 and 1 score'. That is so disappointing.

[Epaminondas Pules]

There’s a lot to be said for that first yellow and also the next penalty against LCD that was categorically wrong. Well, both were. But that doesn’t stop us slowing their ball, or tackling. That’s on us. Yes it is a man down and territory pressure, but first up tackling has to be better and usually is.

We did move the ball well at times but also seemed devoid of ideas. The midfields were poles apart, but Tuipolotu and Jones are top drawer players. Tactically we were unable to mould ourselves to the actual game playing out in front of us. We had a huge advantage at scrum and maul, but the we made very odd decisions in how we play of them.

All round it was a bit of a bland display from England.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

First, I did think it was a penalty against LCD. The first yellow was an absolute joke, though. BUT we don’t get to that stage if we don’t miss tackles! We just absolutely were not at the races, and we have that in ourselves regularly. When do you ever see France lack intensity or South Africa? You don’t. SB needs to take the blame for that.

As a Quins fan, too, I don’t think I can agree that Jones is a top drawer player. I think he’s made to look good, which brings me to another problem we have.

We perform to our ability, often. Which is at a high level. We beat good teams because we’re a very good team. But I can’t really imagine us beating SA or a fired up team who are performing above their ability.

Scotland often perform to their ability, but they also often take it up a notch and perform like that. And we cannot do that.

Which makes me think that SB is 100% the problem

Absolutely bizarre take on Jones. Sure he took a while to settle in at the basket case of Quins, but then somehow turned in to a very good fullback when we needed it. When Jones tears apart New Zealand or France was that also them being bad? Or the dozen other times he’s done it to England?

I’ve got to say the whole “the opposition isn’t even good, it’s just that we were so bad” attitude is one of the things I see so much from English fans that makes it very hard to get back on board when I have split loyalties. Wanting to ditch half the team on the back of this is pretty funny though.

Correct on LCD. I haven’t got a clue how anyone is arguing this one. One of his arms is sort of up, but not sure you’d call it wrapping.

The Arundel one was weird, but I guess it’s because he basically rolls over the top of Darge before going for the ball? I’m not sure the ref gave much if any explanation on that.

There’s no requirement in rugby to wrap. The closest you have is that there must be an attempt to grasp (law 9), which basically means you have to use your arm. LCDs arm is out horizontal to his impacting shoulder. It’s not a no arm tackle which is what the TMO claimed. The low chops are always the hardest because yore effected slide tackling the player with your shoulder and arm. It always looks worse than it is. But it’s very much legal IF you get your arm out and tackle with the same arm and shoulder.

[Oakboy]

It was a test. SB failed it. He still might be the future but there is now more doubt.

You won’t like it but, in the backs, we should have built on the Ford/Atkinson axis, Lawrence/Ojomoh and developed Freeman as fb cover rather than clogging up the 13 channel

Do you really rate Lawrence?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Blimey France look frighteningly good! Everyone in motion and boy do they flood when someone makes a half break! This is going to be an absolute horror show in Cardiff!

[Mikey Brown]

But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Scotland manage to create a system that gets more out of decent players.

I don’t feel like we get more out of our players. Occasionally there are good performances, but most of the time we just see par performances from our players. Which isn’t good enough and it’s not the fault of the players.

I just get the same vibe from SB as I get from Southgate with football: he can sort out the below par and get us performing to a good level, but unless he can change track, we’re not going to reach the heights France or South Africa can reach.

And I’m allowed to view it through English glasses

Sorry if that came across snarkier than intended. I think it did.

I feel like I agree with most of that. I’m just not sure I got much of that from your previous post.

Has all this recent hype around England been a bit of a false dawn, is that winning streak just luck or has Borthwick been figured out to some degree?

That’s fair. And I think that’s in part due to me poorly expressing myself sans partly due to the coverage of England and the idea that we’re suddenly world beaters.

There is one other thing to keep in mind: this is a post Lions year. Our key players have been playing non stop for ages. They need a rest.

Yeah, it’s not as good or as bad as has been made out really.

Lions hangover is real. I mean look at Ireland this year.

As for the LCD tackle I just didn’t see it as either arm being involved, more that one was down by his side.

[Mikey Brown]

Blimey France look frighteningly good! Everyone in motion and boy do they flood when someone makes a half break! This is going to be an absolute horror show in Cardiff!

Yeah Wales already look like they have that late-game fatigue at 25 minutes. A couple of promising individual moments at least.

[p/d]

I think Wales have weathered the storm well. See them coming back into this

[Which Tyler]

Dupont has male pattern baldness coming through.

Hah! That's one thing I have over him!

[Mr Mwenda]

Dupont has male pattern baldness coming through.

Hah! That's one thing I have over him!

We were discussing that joyfully last week here!