England v Ireland Sat 21 Feb at 2.10pm

[fivepointer]

Always going to be a big game but after yesterdays performance its become even more so.

Changes would seem to be on the cards.

Just how many and where?

[Which Tyler]

The answer will be no, or minimal changes, the players are all better than that.

For myself, I'd probably agree with that, Genge and Steward would be under threat due to performances across both matches. Itoje should be having time off to grieve properly. Fin Smith can only bench if there's a 3rd back sat next to him.

There's no viable alternative to Genge though, but maybe bench?
Steward and Roebuck concern me as a pairing, so if Furbank isn't fit, then...
I still like the Freeman at 13 experiment*, but still think it's not ready for international rugby, so maybe Lawrence to 13, Freeman to wing, Roebuck to bench... Feels a bit complicated.
Having already selected Itoje means that the bed has been made, and has to be lain in.

So... Dunno. Probably Furbank to 15, maybe Genge to bench, 5:3 bench will always be my preference.


* NB, I also thing it's a made Bed, and needs to be lain in, in and of itself, but I do want to split Steward and Roebuck

[Danno]

No-one covered themselves in glory yesterday. I agree that Genge, Itoje and Steward need a rest/to be dropped (Steward simply isn't international quality) but outside of Chessum and Earl the whole team was still on the bus and that indicates coaching issues, including a terrible gameplan, over anything else.

That's the seventh game in a row where we've seemed surprised that Scotland put everything out against us. It's not rocket surgery - they will be fired up so you need to make your tackles and keep hold of the fucking pill instead of letting them counter and go wide every three phases.

[FKAS]

Problem is Steward, Genge and Itoje are comfortably better than the alternatives (given the form and fitness of the alternatives currently at any rate). Genge looks like he's trying to hard, Steward is solid and that's it at this level, which will never be good enough for some England fans and Itoje is clearly struggling mentally.

Freeman back to the wing feels like an obvious move but requires whomever is 12 to defend the 13 channel because Lawrence gets found out at international level. Not sure we can trust Dingwall to do that, he missed a lot of tackles yesterday. Changing both centres feels like a stretch as well or at least for this England coaching team.

I would like to see CCS come onto the bench to cover lock. He'd add some much needed physical impact in the second half of games. Kloska for Davison, if Obano was in the squad I'd have him for Rodd as well. I'd like to see Fisilau given a run as well, probably have to be Underhill to make way with TCurry to 7 to facilitate that though and that would be quite a big call.

Selection Ballache will hopefully have something up his sleeve, injuries have certainly been hampering him though.

At a guess/hope;

Genge, LCD, Heyes
Itoje, Chessum
Pepper, Earl, TCurry
Mitchell, Ford
Atkinson, Lawrence
Freeman, Steward, Roebuck

George, Rodd, Kloska, CCS, Pollock, Fisilau, JvP, M Smith (and hope he's not as bad as he's been for Quins or Vs Wales)

[Danno]

Problem is Steward, Genge and Itoje are comfortably better than the alternatives

On form, yes, but they're terrible at the moment and cause more problems than they solve. Steward is particularly problematic as the alternative is Marcus, but I think I'd rather roll the dice on him making something from nothing than a player that makes nothing from something.

I think I'd go

Rodd, George, Heyes
Coles, Chessum
TCurry, Earl, Underhill

Mitchell, Ford/FSmith
Dingwall, Lawrence
Freeman, MSmith, Roebuck

LCD (christ we need some hookers to step up soon), Genge, Davidson, CCS, Pollock, JvP, the FH that didn't start, Daly.

I don't think giving Kloska and Fisilau their maiden caps against Ireland - even at home - would end well. I also think the above is too many changes, but the spine of the team is still there, just a minor adjustment for George starting over LCD because George is just better. Genge needs a benching as a kick in the taint because he's been awful/trying too hard/reverting to his early years type.

And yeah I've dropped Itoje entirely, let the poor lad get his head right for a bit. He buried his Ma a fortnight ago, no matter what he says or does he's going to need some time to come to terms with that and at the risk of sounding like an armchair psychologist, playing rugby is likely a distraction for him at the moment.

[FKAS]

Problem is Steward, Genge and Itoje are comfortably better than the alternatives

On form, yes, but they're terrible at the moment and cause more problems than they solve. Steward is particularly problematic as the alternative is Marcus, but I think I'd rather roll the dice on him making something from nothing than a player that makes nothing from something.

I don't remember Steward butchering any chances. He's unlikely to make them from nothing but he'll run a decent line and reliably throw a pass (seen a couple of offloads from him in the first two rounds which is a rarity).

Marcus might create something but he might also get bullied in the air by Ireland. Vs Wales there was the break from his own 22 and offload to a Welsh defender and then kicking it out on the full. Doesn't inspire confidence. Against the Italians or the French then rolling the dice with Marcus might not be a bad idea but against the Irish I'm not confident. If Marcus's form wasn't a whole load of meh this season maybe more of a case could be made.

As an aside giving Kloska a cap against a struggling Irish scrum would be the best time to do it. It's only going to get tougher Vs Italy and France. Kloska would add substantially to our loose game compared to Davison as well.

[p/d]

To come in

Pollock, and the Wuss old boys F Smith, Atkinson and Lawrence.

Freeman back to wing

New fb as Steward looks to have a hangover from once being dominant under the high ball.

[Mellsblue]

Our much vaunted depth looks in trouble already.

Of the opinion we let Itoje and backroom staff decide whether he’s ok to play. Find it a little distasteful that we’re opining on how he should grieve.

[Epaminondas Pules]

All depends for me if Arundell is banned. Freeman goes to wing for Roebuck. Lawrence to 13, Atkinson to 12. Pollock to 7. Otherwise as you were. There’s no real alternative to Steward as it stands. JVP for Spencer on the bench. And I’d go 5/3 with Rodd sbd Davidson hardly inspiring. I’d also be tempted with CCS for carrying.

[Spiffy]

The back row is crying out for a tall, aggressive Lawes-like 6 who can carry, jump and tackle. Chessum, who has played flanker in the past, could do a job.

[SixAndAHalf]

For me:

Heyes; LCD; Rodd; CCS; Chessum; Pepper; Pollock; Earl; Mitchell; Ford; Arundell; Lawrence; Freeman; Furbank / MSmith

Sela; George; Genge; Itoje; TCurry; Underhill; Spencer; MSmith / Daly

[Banquo]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

[Banquo]

For me:

Heyes; LCD; Rodd; CCS; Chessum; Pepper; Pollock; Earl; Mitchell; Ford; Arundell; Lawrence; Freeman; Furbank / MSmith

Sela; George; Genge; Itoje; TCurry; Underhill; Spencer; MSmith / Daly

I know the centres weren’t great, but there must be one you’d pick?

[Banquo]

All depends for me if Arundell is banned. Freeman goes to wing for Roebuck. Lawrence to 13, Atkinson to 12. Pollock to 7. Otherwise as you were. There’s no real alternative to Steward as it stands. JVP for Spencer on the bench. And I’d go 5/3 with Rodd sbd Davidson hardly inspiring. I’d also be tempted with CCS for carrying.

Certainly agree with carrying, that was even apparent v Wales.

[Mellsblue]

Yep. We lost the contact battle which you’d expect against the bigger sides but not against the Scots. We miss a big lock and backrow. We have plenty of dynamic/athletic carriers but no weighty lumps.
We also decided to kick the leather off it despite losing the aerial battle.

[Stom]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

I agree with you here.

[Stom]

Rodd, George, Heyes, Coles, Chessum, Curry, Underhill, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Freeman (Arundell is banned, right? If not him, and leave Freeman at 13), Dingwall, Lawrence (Unless I'm wrong on Arundell, in which case Freeman), Roebuck, Furbank/MSmith

LCD, Genge, Anyone, CCS, Pepper, Pollock, JvP/Quirke, MSmith/Daly.

Itoje sent home to put his feet up, no more rugby this 6N for him, some needed R&R for body and mind, and put the long-term ahead of the short term, as I think France are ominous now, and they'll win the title. So who cares if we finish 2nd or 5th.

[Spiffy]

Don't get the continued support for Dingwall. I know he is supposed to be the Conrad Smith-glue-like organizer, whether at 12 or 13, but I really don't see his real international class. England will probably beat an over the hill Ireland handily enough but won't learn much by running out the same old selection.

[Danno]

Of the opinion we let Itoje and backroom staff decide whether he’s ok to play. Find it a little distasteful that we’re opining on how he should grieve.

Fair (and unfair of me in my earlier post) but whether it's personal issues, exhaustion or a.n.other problem, he's not right at the moment - and that's very rare for him. Even when he was giving away too many pens he was still excellent. Right now he just isn't at the races and Coles is capable of filling in for him. (He's far from the biggest problem we have ofc).

[Danno]

Don't get the continued support for Dingwall. I know he is supposed to be the Conrad Smith-glue-like organizer, whether at 12 or 13, but I really don't see his real international class. England will probably beat an over the hill Ireland handily enough but won't learn much by running out the same old selection.

A combination of Saints fans and faint shock that we have an actual 12 after 23 years

[Which Tyler]

Of the opinion we let Itoje and backroom staff decide whether he’s ok to play. Find it a little distasteful that we’re opining on how he should grieve.

Luckily, no-one's telling him how to grieve.
We're expressing an opinion, that he'll never see, that he shouldn't be playing for England at the moment because his form isn't good enough, but also acknowledging that there's no obvious alternative as 3rd lock.

[Beasties]

I mean, we were just sh1t and didn’t remotely get off the bus.
Scotland were up for it 100% more than we were at Murrayfield shocker.
Let’s not ignore the elephant in the room.
I doubt we’ll be that sh1t again this weekend.

[Scrumhead]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

100% agreed on all the above.

This notion of ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ seems like a very knee jerk reaction. Particularly when there aren’t hugely obvious replacements.

I’d like to drop Genge and Steward but I’m not sure the players replacing them add enough to warrant doing so. I expect Borthwick will demand a reaction from everyone and I hope/expect these two will have a pretty stern talking to.

Ireland are down to the bare bones in the front row. That either presents an opportunity to assert dominance or a slightly reduced risk in starting Rodd. I prefer the latter.

I’d be happy with Furbank but his injury proneness makes him a big risk. Even more so if we want to persist with a 6:2.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

100% this was the big issue, both in terms of from the outset and inability to change. I'd argue somewhat that the selection wasn't optimal to what I think we should have been aiming at.

[Banquo]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

100% this was the big issue, both in terms of from the outset and inability to change. I'd argue somewhat that the selection wasn't optimal to what I think we should have been aiming at.

So selected the wrong team for what we were trying to do, or we were trying to do the wrong things? I’m thinking the latter in which case, the start point is very different and you are proposing a radical reset?