England v Ireland Sat 21 Feb at 2.10pm

[Banquo]

Don't get the continued support for Dingwall. I know he is supposed to be the Conrad Smith-glue-like organizer, whether at 12 or 13, but I really don't see his real international class. England will probably beat an over the hill Ireland handily enough but won't learn much by running out the same old selection.

I’m a fan cos I’m a mate of his dad, and he’s a top lad with a great rugby brain, but I do think physically he’s not gifted enough to be a worldie…but he makes others excel in most conditions. Saturday wasn’t one of them, but as above the half backs were generally poor, the forwards mullered in the loose, and we had 6 backs for 30 mins.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Kinda struggling with the concept of rearranging the outside backs on the back of a defeat where we basically lacked any intensity or accuracy in the carry or breakdown and where the half backs use of the ball was rubbish, and where we played with 6 backs for 30 mins. I’ll grant that none of the outside backs were glorious but it wasn’t the root of our issues or even close. Heralded as heroes v wales, now shit- no doubt Roebuck, Dingers and Freeman were disappointing, but you shouldn’t be surprised given what was happening. I give up on Steward a bit, but who else? I would have said Freeman 18 months ago, but that ship has sailed.

I’d think our approach rather than personnel was the bigger problem.

100% this was the big issue, both in terms of from the outset and inability to change. I'd argue somewhat that the selection wasn't optimal to what I think we should have been aiming at.

So selected the wrong team for what we were trying to do, or we were trying to do the wrong things? I’m thinking the latter in which case, the start point is very different and you are proposing a radical reset?

Definitely doing the wrong things. Scotland thrive off quick ball and we didn't target their breakdown, at all really (this is an area I'd have changed personnel. Curry for example). 2 turnovers all game! We didn't look to hard carry enough and narrow them defensively. Our carry as a whole (Ben Earl aside) was cack. We should have targeted their lineout more.

Over kicked (and badly, but that is something else). That first box kick off the rampaging maul shows it was completely a plan, and raises questions over the players' ability to play what they see (a. are they allowed to and b. can they). Our support play was very poor.

It is hard to judge the backs play somewhat due to the circumstances of being down a back for 30 mins.

[FKAS]

I imagine we stopped competing whilst down to 14 to try and keep more players on their feet to defend. More concerning was our inability to protect our own ball carriers at the breakdown.

[Stom]

Don't get the continued support for Dingwall. I know he is supposed to be the Conrad Smith-glue-like organizer, whether at 12 or 13, but I really don't see his real international class. England will probably beat an over the hill Ireland handily enough but won't learn much by running out the same old selection.

I’m a fan cos I’m a mate of his dad, and he’s a top lad with a great rugby brain, but I do think physically he’s not gifted enough to be a worldie…but he makes others excel in most conditions. Saturday wasn’t one of them, but as above the half backs were generally poor, the forwards mullered in the loose, and we had 6 backs for 30 mins.

Yeah, he didn’t stand out as being particularly poor. It was more what happened around him and that he couldn’t influence it positively… and that was a team wide issue because it was a coaching issue.

[Oakboy]

Neither will happen but . . . . The 6:2 has to go and constantly kicking the ball away has to stop.

Personnel-wise, stick with most of them if the tactics persist. Make quite a few changes if there's a proper re-think.

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Pollock has to start. Mitchell has to play his natural game. Quirke to the bench.

[FKAS]

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Correct. Have you seen Marcus's form this season?

[Banquo]

100% this was the big issue, both in terms of from the outset and inability to change. I'd argue somewhat that the selection wasn't optimal to what I think we should have been aiming at.

So selected the wrong team for what we were trying to do, or we were trying to do the wrong things? I’m thinking the latter in which case, the start point is very different and you are proposing a radical reset?

Definitely doing the wrong things. Scotland thrive off quick ball and we didn't target their breakdown, at all really (this is an area I'd have changed personnel. Curry for example). 2 turnovers all game! We didn't look to hard carry enough and narrow them defensively. Our carry as a whole (Ben Earl aside) was cack. We should have targeted their lineout more.

Over kicked (and badly, but that is something else). That first box kick off the rampaging maul shows it was completely a plan, and raises questions over the players' ability to play what they see (a. are they allowed to and b. can they). Our support play was very poor.

It is hard to judge the backs play somewhat due to the circumstances of being down a back for 30 mins.

Aye

[Which Tyler]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
A battle plan never survives contact with the enemy
The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley

England had a bad day at the office all round - every single player played below par for themselves - which IMO is full credit to Scotland, they punched us in the face nice and early, and put us off our rhythm. Just when it felt we might be finding our feet, they punched us in the face again.

Under Townsend, Scotland ALWAYS get up for the match against England, and always exceed par for themselves (and par for them is still pretty good)
Under Borthwick, we play our way, and challenge others to beat us - which is enough against most team most of the time. But it's not enough against a France or NZ who are in the mood, a South Africa regardless of their mood, or a highly motivated Scotland, Ireland or Argentina (or maybe even a highly motivated Aus).

That's just where the teams are under the current coaches and with the player pools available. Let's face it, even Mrs Borthwick doesn't look to Steve for inspiration, just graft.
Tinkering with selection would be as effective as rearranging the chairs on the Titanic - we'll still play the same way, and just as vulnerable to the metaphorical punch in the face. Not helped by the three lowest performers (by their standards) having no obvious alternatives (Genge, Itoje, Steward)
At this point, our bed has been made, and we have to lie in it (coach, playing Itoje, 6:2, Freeman experiment, gameplan, motivation)

[SixAndAHalf]

Neither will happen but . . . . The 6:2 has to go and constantly kicking the ball away has to stop.

Personnel-wise, stick with most of them if the tactics persist. Make quite a few changes if there's a proper re-think.

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Pollock has to start. Mitchell has to play his natural game. Quirke to the bench.

What’s the thinking behind stopping the 6/2?

[p/d]

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Pollock has to start. Mitchell has to play his natural game. Quirke to the bench.

…. And yet you are happy to take a world class winger and play him at 13.

I would certainly have gone into this 6n with a smith at 10 and left Slade out of the squad. FB is a problem though.

Pollock - like or loathe him - needs to start. We will not beat the likes of SA without a point of difference.

As it is we look very much what we are. Good but limited.

[p/d]

. But it's not enough against a France or NZ who are in the mood, a South Africa regardless of their mood, or a highly motivated Scotland, Ireland or Argentina (or maybe even a highly motivated Aus).

Bit harsh on Italy

[Which Tyler]

. But it's not enough against a France or NZ who are in the mood, a South Africa regardless of their mood, or a highly motivated Scotland, Ireland or Argentina (or maybe even a highly motivated Aus).

Bit harsh on Italy

If we dip against Italy like we did against Scotland, then yes.
I'm not sure they could force us to play that badly though - not just yet, maybe in a year or two

[Mikey Brown]

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Correct. Have you seen Marcus's form this season?

As a fly-half in a muddled and jaded club side or a part-time Hail Mary option at fullback for England?

I’m not particularly defending the form of either, I’m just curious. Both seem such a long way from what he would be tasked with for England as a 10. It’s a strange situation really.

[Banquo]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
A battle plan never survives contact with the enemy
The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley

England had a bad day at the office all round - every single player played below par for themselves - which IMO is full credit to Scotland, they punched us in the face nice and early, and put us off our rhythm. Just when it felt we might be finding our feet, they punched us in the face again.

Under Townsend, Scotland ALWAYS get up for the match against England, and always exceed par for themselves (and par for them is still pretty good)
Under Borthwick, we play our way, and challenge others to beat us - which is enough against most team most of the time. But it's not enough against a France or NZ who are in the mood, a South Africa regardless of their mood, or a highly motivated Scotland, Ireland or Argentina (or maybe even a highly motivated Aus).

That's just where the teams are under the current coaches and with the player pools available. Let's face it, even Mrs Borthwick doesn't look to Steve for inspiration, just graft.
Tinkering with selection would be as effective as rearranging the chairs on the Titanic - we'll still play the same way, and just as vulnerable to the metaphorical punch in the face. Not helped by the three lowest performers (by their standards) having no obvious alternatives (Genge, Itoje, Steward)
At this point, our bed has been made, and we have to lie in it (coach, playing Itoje, 6:2, Freeman experiment, gameplan, motivation)

Its been a recurring thing over decades. Mysteriously, never ready for the punch when it arrives- that's the puzzling bit. And annoyingly we threw the first punch with an impressive 30m driving maul and then chucked ourselves on the canvas.

[Oakboy]

Neither will happen but . . . . The 6:2 has to go and constantly kicking the ball away has to stop.

Personnel-wise, stick with most of them if the tactics persist. Make quite a few changes if there's a proper re-think.

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Pollock has to start. Mitchell has to play his natural game. Quirke to the bench.

What’s the thinking behind stopping the 6/2?

We need a balanced group of backs on the bench more than we need two back rowers. I've never agreed with five back rowers to do the job of four. If the three chosen to start cannot do 80 they are the wrong choice in the first place.

[Mikey Brown]

Or we can all just stop pretending and accept Pollock is a back.

[Beasties]

I imagine we stopped competing whilst down to 14 to try and keep more players on their feet to defend. More concerning was our inability to protect our own ball carriers at the breakdown.

Of all the horrors that were going on, that inability to arrive in numbers and secure our own ball was most perplexing.

[Mellsblue]

Of the opinion we let Itoje and backroom staff decide whether he’s ok to play. Find it a little distasteful that we’re opining on how he should grieve.

Fair (and unfair of me in my earlier post) but whether it's personal issues, exhaustion or a.n.other problem, he's not right at the moment - and that's very rare for him. Even when he was giving away too many pens he was still excellent. Right now he just isn't at the races and Coles is capable of filling in for him. (He's far from the biggest problem we have ofc).

Wasn’t having a pop at anyone in particular. I just feel like absolutely no one here knows him and how he should handle it. We all deal with grief differently.
Agreed he wasn’t at the races on Saturday but who was…

[Mellsblue]

Of the opinion we let Itoje and backroom staff decide whether he’s ok to play. Find it a little distasteful that we’re opining on how he should grieve.

Luckily, no-one's telling him how to grieve.
We're expressing an opinion, that he'll never see, that he shouldn't be playing for England at the moment because his form isn't good enough, but also acknowledging that there's no obvious alternative as 3rd lock.

As I said to Danno, I wasn’t having a pop at anyone specifically but if you posting ‘Itoje should be having time off to grieve properly’ isn’t telling him how to grieve and is merely saying his form isn’t good enough then I’m very much misunderstanding. Anyway, each to their own. Let’s hope he plays, and plays well, this weekend, should he wish to.

I actually hope he does read this forum. He probably needs a laugh

[Mellsblue]

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
A battle plan never survives contact with the enemy
The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley

England had a bad day at the office all round - every single player played below par for themselves - which IMO is full credit to Scotland, they punched us in the face nice and early, and put us off our rhythm. Just when it felt we might be finding our feet, they punched us in the face again.

Under Townsend, Scotland ALWAYS get up for the match against England, and always exceed par for themselves (and par for them is still pretty good)
Under Borthwick, we play our way, and challenge others to beat us - which is enough against most team most of the time. But it's not enough against a France or NZ who are in the mood, a South Africa regardless of their mood, or a highly motivated Scotland, Ireland or Argentina (or maybe even a highly motivated Aus).

That's just where the teams are under the current coaches and with the player pools available. Let's face it, even Mrs Borthwick doesn't look to Steve for inspiration, just graft.
Tinkering with selection would be as effective as rearranging the chairs on the Titanic - we'll still play the same way, and just as vulnerable to the metaphorical punch in the face. Not helped by the three lowest performers (by their standards) having no obvious alternatives (Genge, Itoje, Steward)
At this point, our bed has been made, and we have to lie in it (coach, playing Itoje, 6:2, Freeman experiment, gameplan, motivation)

Its been a recurring thing over decades. Mysteriously, never ready for the punch when it arrives- that's the puzzling bit. And annoyingly we threw the first punch with an impressive 30m driving maul and then chucked ourselves on the canvas.

This made me lol

[p/d]

Me too

[Mellsblue]

Must be the euphoria of his return.

[p/d]

Must be the euphoria of his return.

let's go with that......

[Which Tyler]

As I said to Danno, I wasn’t having a pop at anyone specifically but if you posting ‘Itoje should be having time off to grieve properly’ isn’t telling him how to grieve and is merely saying his form isn’t good enough then I’m very much misunderstanding. Anyway, each to their own. Let’s hope he plays, and plays well, this weekend, should he wish to.

You obviously interpret the words "how to grieve" very differently to me.
I'm not telling him, or anyone else how to grieve, I'm saying that he shouldn't be playing international rugby - because his form is shit, which is probably because he's grieving.
I'm not telling him to get over it. I'm not telling him to cry on his dog's shoulder, or to go get drunk to numb the pain, or to meditate, or see a counsellor, or any other form of "how to do X". In fact, I'm not telling him anything at all - I'm pretty sure that if the England rugby captain was a poster on RR, he'd have been busted by now, and someone would have claimed their £5

I'm telling people who aren't Itoje that, in my opinion, his rugby is suffering at the moment.

[Spiffy]

Neither will happen but . . . . The 6:2 has to go and constantly kicking the ball away has to stop.

Personnel-wise, stick with most of them if the tactics persist. Make quite a few changes if there's a proper re-think.

Nobody will agree with me, but I'd start Marcus at 10 and Slade at 15.

Pollock has to start. Mitchell has to play his natural game. Quirke to the bench.

Why doesn't Carpenter, a real full back, get some consideration for the 15 shirt?
He's been consistently good for a couple of seasons, played well in Argentina, has decent gas, good footwork and an attacking bent.