England v Ireland Sat 21 Feb at 2.10pm

[francoisfou]

Two more humiliating defeats await unless Stubborn Bonce changes his tactics|!

[Epaminondas Pules]

The possession stats will have Statistical Balance creaming his pants! Clearly an England victory in every sense!

[Banquo]

So depressing to have every verdict reiterated thrice!!!
The breakdown chat is interesting- physicality AND decision making AND accuracy all lacking. Ireland make great decisions and hit rucks with such ferocity when they go for it that they get away with moider and fair play to them as it were

[Oakboy]

Maybe, after a period, Borthwick has been found wanting as a coach/leader just as he was as a player/leader.

[Banquo]

Our leading carrier?

George Ford

[Banquo]

Maybe, after a period, Borthwick has been found wanting as a coach/leader just as he was as a player/leader.

Whilst I’d love to jump back on the bandwagon, the playing group needs to have a look at themselves.

[Oakboy]

Our leading carrier?

George Ford

Does running and kicking count as carrying?

[Banquo]

Our leading carrier?

George Ford

Does running and kicking count as carrying?

Running does. 84 m!

My point was really….he should’nt be holding that stat.

[Oakboy]

Maybe, after a period, Borthwick has been found wanting as a coach/leader just as he was as a player/leader.

Whilst I’d love to jump back on the bandwagon, the playing group needs to have a look at themselves.

Yes, but Borthwick picks them and prepares them. Why do they not even look up for it right from the start? Can players raise themselves at this level with no faith in the management?

[Banquo]

Maybe, after a period, Borthwick has been found wanting as a coach/leader just as he was as a player/leader.

Whilst I’d love to jump back on the bandwagon, the playing group needs to have a look at themselves.

Yes, but Borthwick picks them and prepares them. Why do they not even look up for it right from the start? Can players raise themselves at this level with no faith in the management?

They won’t have lost faith- they’d won 12 on the spin.
They’ve choked in front of very intense teams and onfield leadership terrible. Buck stops with him tho

[Epaminondas Pules]

I do wonder how much voice the players have; and very much how much voice Blackett has!

[Banquo]

I do wonder how much voice the players have; and very much how much voice Blackett has!

Thing is, we may moan about attack and intent, that’s not just that that is really killing us though attacking rucks have been very messy and inaccurate and aerial wars heavily lost.
There’s problems in defence, in basics and in leadership ie no foundation that stands up to stress.

[FKAS]

Our leading carrier?

George Ford

Does running and kicking count as carrying?

Running does. 84 m!

My point was really….he should’nt be holding that stat.

He should not. He did dart through some gaps which was good to see. Really we could have done with kicking more, especially whilst Ireland were down a man. Overplayed our hand badly in that period.

[fivepointer]

We managed to even worse than last week. Thats some effort but tells you everything about the utterly inadequate performance we've just endured.

Something has gone seriously awry with this team. From looking very good in the autumn and producing a passable win against Wales the wheels have fallen off. We looked a complete shambles at times often failing with some pretty basic elements that you'd expect us to have nailed down by now.

Dreadful and embarrassing.

[Banquo]

Does running and kicking count as carrying?

Running does. 84 m!

My point was really….he should’nt be holding that stat.

He should not. He did dart through some gaps which was good to see. Really we could have done with kicking more, especially whilst Ireland were down a man. Overplayed our hand badly in that period.

18 is a pretty low number tis true. But playing catch up does that to you.

[Oakboy]

Two away matches to come. 1/5 could look pretty feeble, especially if Wales keep their lead against Scotland.

[Oakboy]

Any news on injured players with the break?

[Banquo]

Two away matches to come. 1/5 could look pretty feeble, especially if Wales keep their lead against Scotland.

1/5 should lead to change despite the 12 match run, the bookends are pretty bad

[FKAS]

Two away matches to come. 1/5 could look pretty feeble, especially if Wales keep their lead against Scotland.

1/5 should lead to change despite the 12 match run, the bookends are pretty bad

1/5 would be an appalling tournament for us but would be a bit football to knee jerk sack Borthwick. Had the AIs been awful then maybe it would be on the cards but after a successful AIs I just can't see him biting the bullet. They'd be some very uncomfortable questions aimed at him, especially given the cost of retaining all his current coaches with some possibly not renewed on the back of a poor 6N. They'd be a lot of heat heading into the summer.

[fivepointer]

2/5 looks to be a distinct possibility. Even if we were playing well I dont see us winning in Paris. Based on the last two weeks even a win in Rome is a touch fanciful as well.

Quite why we've served up two appalling back to back performances is a bit of a head scratcher. One bad game in Edinburgh could be explained as a blip by a better effort today. As we've actually played worse, I'm at a loss to understand just how we've managed to fall apart in such spectacular fashion.

[Oakboy]

2/5 looks to be a distinct possibility. Even if we were playing well I dont see us winning in Paris. Based on the last two weeks even a win in Rome is a touch fanciful as well.

Quite why we've served up two appalling back to back performances is a bit of a head scratcher. One bad game in Edinburgh could be explained as a blip by a better effort today. As we've actually played worse, I'm at a loss to understand just how we've managed to fall apart in such spectacular fashion.

Bloody hell, what do I know. Banquo says the players need to stand up and I accept that.

Then I look at the first ten minutes of both defeats. We were not up for either game. Never mind selection and which fifteen players should be starting. They are all decent players and they looked lost TWICE!!!. Once would be excusable. But, for it to happen in the next game as well? Something fundamentally flawed is wrong in the training camp. It's undeniable.

[pjm1]

Honestly, most players were playing as if they’d all come down with some sort of bug.

No energy, basic minis-rugby level mistakes, no cohesion in either A or D.

I don’t think that is the cause but there is something very, very wrong in this setup.

[Captainhaircut]

The fact that we just didn’t see it coming is what has got me thinking the lions could be a factor. Said it a number of times but LCD, Genge, Chessum, Itoje, Curry, Mitchell and Freeman look miles off it. Plus Stuart is injured.

Add that drop off to IFW, BCurry, Furbank, Baxter, AOF and Roebuck being unavailable/not match fit and we’re in a fair pickle.

Leaves us in a very interesting position for the last 2 matches.

- What do we do about Itoje? Do we stand him down- Arthur Clark is the next lock in the squad.

- How do we balance the front row starters and bench? Almost impossible to bring Sela in now. Is Rodd the right man to bench or would Obano bring more impact?

- Do we start George and have Dan on the bench? Dan’s darts are worst than LCD’s…

- Do we make changes in the back row? Fisilau, CCS and Kenningham are in the squad- none of them fix our ability to get quick ball. Does Roots come back into the mix?

- what do we do at half back? If Mitchell is out, I think the only combos to have played are Ford/JVP and Ford/Spencer. Big gamble to field a pair who have never played together. If Mitchell is fit, Fin feels a no brainer.

- Dingwall looking underpowered. Do we go to Atkinson or Ojomoh. You could argue go with both as a combo. Ojomoh and Lawrence have club combo benefit although doubt they’ve actually played together that much. Could go Atkinson and Lawrence and hope for some Worcester telepathy- particularly if Fin is at 10.

- Our super wing depth being tested now. Does Roebuck come back in with another 2 weeks under his belt? Another chance for Murley on the left perhaps although Lynagh very strong in the air so that’s not a good match.

- full back: stewards time is surely over? Security under high ball gone and he isn’t scaring any defences at test level. Do we gamble on Furbank? Play Marcus Smith there. Borthers more likely to go to Daly…

All in, you could be looking at 8 changes to the starting 15 and a few on the bench too.

[Danno]

Might as well post this rant I made elsewhere:

. I don't think individual players are the issue, barring maybe Ford, Genge and Itoje, who look very out of sorts. The systems are shunt, the will is barely there and the physicality and intensity are stuck in the luggage compartment of the bus, assuming someone remembered to pack them before departing from Pennyhill.

Italy in two weeks is a real concern now, they'll be Pollocking their lips at the prospect of getting their first scalp against us at home and good luck to them, because they don't play insipid rugby-by-excel, they go for it and finally have the players to do so.

I'm incredibly cross and moreso in light of the Wales v Scotland result, which Wales should not have lost but for a brain dead switch-off that shifted the score and the momentum very decisively. Our pack was like 7 Adam Beards at times, while the backs butchered chances time and time again.

And I cannot believe that this group of players is really to blame for that. There are some injury issues and some in the wider squad not ready to come through (in the pack - Sela, Pollock shouldn't start with Earl and such), but it's the lack of belief, a poor gameplan, and no alternative to kicking the **** out of it and panicking when it isn't regathered. Which is all on the coaches.

[Banquo]

Two away matches to come. 1/5 could look pretty feeble, especially if Wales keep their lead against Scotland.

1/5 should lead to change despite the 12 match run, the bookends are pretty bad

1/5 would be an appalling tournament for us but would be a bit football to knee jerk sack Borthwick. Had the AIs been awful then maybe it would be on the cards but after a successful AIs I just can't see him biting the bullet. They'd be some very uncomfortable questions aimed at him, especially given the cost of retaining all his current coaches with some possibly not renewed on the back of a poor 6N. They'd be a lot of heat heading into the summer.

….where did I say sack Borthwick? I said change…