England v Ireland Sat 21 Feb at 2.10pm

[Banquo]

The fact that we just didn’t see it coming is what has got me thinking the lions could be a factor. Said it a number of times but LCD, Genge, Chessum, Itoje, Curry, Mitchell and Freeman look miles off it. Plus Stuart is injured.

Add that drop off to IFW, BCurry, Furbank, Baxter, AOF and Roebuck being unavailable/not match fit and we’re in a fair pickle.

Leaves us in a very interesting position for the last 2 matches.

- What do we do about Itoje? Do we stand him down- Arthur Clark is the next lock in the squad.

- How do we balance the front row starters and bench? Almost impossible to bring Sela in now. Is Rodd the right man to bench or would Obano bring more impact?

- Do we start George and have Dan on the bench? Dan’s darts are worst than LCD’s…

- Do we make changes in the back row? Fisilau, CCS and Kenningham are in the squad- none of them fix our ability to get quick ball. Does Roots come back into the mix?

- what do we do at half back? If Mitchell is out, I think the only combos to have played are Ford/JVP and Ford/Spencer. Big gamble to field a pair who have never played together. If Mitchell is fit, Fin feels a no brainer.

- Dingwall looking underpowered. Do we go to Atkinson or Ojomoh. You could argue go with both as a combo. Ojomoh and Lawrence have club combo benefit although doubt they’ve actually played together that much. Could go Atkinson and Lawrence and hope for some Worcester telepathy- particularly if Fin is at 10.

- Our super wing depth being tested now. Does Roebuck come back in with another 2 weeks under his belt? Another chance for Murley on the left perhaps although Lynagh very strong in the air so that’s not a good match.

- full back: stewards time is surely over? Security under high ball gone and he isn’t scaring any defences at test level. Do we gamble on Furbank? Play Marcus Smith there. Borthers more likely to go to Daly…

All in, you could be looking at 8 changes to the starting 15 and a few on the bench too.

Lots of Lions in the sides that whacked us.

[Banquo]

Might as well post this rant I made elsewhere:

. I don't think individual players are the issue, barring maybe Ford, Genge and Itoje, who look very out of sorts. The systems are shunt, the will is barely there and the physicality and intensity are stuck in the luggage compartment of the bus, assuming someone remembered to pack them before departing from Pennyhill.

Italy in two weeks is a real concern now, they'll be Pollocking their lips at the prospect of getting their first scalp against us at home and good luck to them, because they don't play insipid rugby-by-excel, they go for it and finally have the players to do so.

I'm incredibly cross and moreso in light of the Wales v Scotland result, which Wales should not have lost but for a brain dead switch-off that shifted the score and the momentum very decisively. Our pack was like 7 Adam Beards at times, while the backs butchered chances time and time again.

And I cannot believe that this group of players is really to blame for that. There are some injury issues and some in the wider squad not ready to come through (in the pack - Sela, Pollock shouldn't start with Earl and such), but it's the lack of belief, a poor gameplan, and no alternative to kicking the **** out of it and panicking when it isn't regathered. Which is all on the coaches.

Mix of stuff for me, players are underperforming and doing stupid things …chicken v egg on systems. For stupidity the players have to take the blame, and onfield leadership and personal responsibility seem lacking.

And for all the options being discussed, the crucial issues are in the back row, half back, and game planning. The rest, as per Scotland, is noise imo. We aren’t ignoring much quality is the problem if looking for a quick fix; the foundations haven’t stood up to being stressed by intensity and physicality and when it doesn’t go your way.

[Danno]

The fact that we just didn’t see it coming is what has got me thinking the lions could be a factor. Said it a number of times but LCD, Genge, Chessum, Itoje, Curry, Mitchell and Freeman look miles off it. Plus Stuart is injured.

Add that drop off to IFW, BCurry, Furbank, Baxter, AOF and Roebuck being unavailable/not match fit and we’re in a fair pickle.

Leaves us in a very interesting position for the last 2 matches.

- What do we do about Itoje? Do we stand him down- Arthur Clark is the next lock in the squad.

- How do we balance the front row starters and bench? Almost impossible to bring Sela in now. Is Rodd the right man to bench or would Obano bring more impact?

- Do we start George and have Dan on the bench? Dan’s darts are worst than LCD’s…

- Do we make changes in the back row? Fisilau, CCS and Kenningham are in the squad- none of them fix our ability to get quick ball. Does Roots come back into the mix?

- what do we do at half back? If Mitchell is out, I think the only combos to have played are Ford/JVP and Ford/Spencer. Big gamble to field a pair who have never played together. If Mitchell is fit, Fin feels a no brainer.

- Dingwall looking underpowered. Do we go to Atkinson or Ojomoh. You could argue go with both as a combo. Ojomoh and Lawrence have club combo benefit although doubt they’ve actually played together that much. Could go Atkinson and Lawrence and hope for some Worcester telepathy- particularly if Fin is at 10.

- Our super wing depth being tested now. Does Roebuck come back in with another 2 weeks under his belt? Another chance for Murley on the left perhaps although Lynagh very strong in the air so that’s not a good match.

- full back: stewards time is surely over? Security under high ball gone and he isn’t scaring any defences at test level. Do we gamble on Furbank? Play Marcus Smith there. Borthers more likely to go to Daly…

All in, you could be looking at 8 changes to the starting 15 and a few on the bench too.

Lots of Lions in the sides that whacked us.

Yeah much like the weird arguments after the Italy Scotland game: they both had to play in the same weather

[Danno]

Might as well post this rant I made elsewhere:

. I don't think individual players are the issue, barring maybe Ford, Genge and Itoje, who look very out of sorts. The systems are shunt, the will is barely there and the physicality and intensity are stuck in the luggage compartment of the bus, assuming someone remembered to pack them before departing from Pennyhill.

Italy in two weeks is a real concern now, they'll be Pollocking their lips at the prospect of getting their first scalp against us at home and good luck to them, because they don't play insipid rugby-by-excel, they go for it and finally have the players to do so.

I'm incredibly cross and moreso in light of the Wales v Scotland result, which Wales should not have lost but for a brain dead switch-off that shifted the score and the momentum very decisively. Our pack was like 7 Adam Beards at times, while the backs butchered chances time and time again.

And I cannot believe that this group of players is really to blame for that. There are some injury issues and some in the wider squad not ready to come through (in the pack - Sela, Pollock shouldn't start with Earl and such), but it's the lack of belief, a poor gameplan, and no alternative to kicking the **** out of it and panicking when it isn't regathered. Which is all on the coaches.

Mix of stuff for me, players are underperforming and doing stupid things …chicken v egg on systems. For stupidity the players have to take the blame, and onfield leadership and personal responsibility seem lacking.

And for all the options being discussed, the crucial issues are in the back row, half back, and game planning. The rest, as per Scotland, is noise imo. We aren’t ignoring much quality is the problem if looking for a quick fix; the foundations haven’t stood up to being stressed by intensity and physicality and when it doesn’t go your way.

Aye. I think we're six of one, half a dozen of the other.

We have some incredible players, we have some average players, we have some mediocre players. The coaches should be gelling that and getting the best they can out of what they have. They ain't.

[p/d]

Could it be the coaches just aren’t that good. Players, individually and collectively, just aren’t that good.

We - or some anyway - dismiss the defeat to Scotland as a blip then boast about a win v NZ as clarification. Isolate individual shortcomings for the purpose of defending a club favourite. And that is before we put blame on the shoulders of a Lions tour.

As we build for the next WC we should park the delusion and reset the development.

[Danno]

Could it be the coaches just aren’t that good. Players, individually and collectively, just aren’t that good.

We - or some anyway - dismiss the defeat to Scotland as a blip then boast about a win v NZ as clarification. Isolate individual shortcomings for the purpose of defending a club favourite. And that is before we put blame on the shoulders of a Lions tour.

As we build for the next WC we should park the delusion and reset the development.

The result today means it's not a blip, but we definitely have a better squad than either of those performances. I don't like to get all [insert forum member here] about it, but man for man, today, and last week I'd have 10 of ours and 5 of theirs.

It really seems, feels and looks like a coaching problem whether that's prep, training, gameplan, setpiece or the whole lot, there is a serious problem when you can't get most of the Saints backline to click.

Probably naive and biased of me as I've never coached or played professionally, but these players are nowhere near playing to their potential and it's extremely irritating to see them fall on their arses in quite such an embarrassing way.

[SixAndAHalf]

Was at the game so have only read through the last few pages but is anyone that surprised by these results? Borthwick has raised our expectations with recent results largely based upon a kicking game plan which has now been worked out. If you consider the likes of Genge and Itoje they are among our better players but you wouldn’t have them as world class.

The biggest error Borthwick has made is loyalty to the older guys (eg Davison, Steward, Dingwall and Rodd) rather than being brutal to try to find top class talent. We have unbelievable depth so should look for ceiling players rather than relying on good club players stepping up. Ultimately the recent losses can be attributed to unforced errors by players which Borthwick can do little about.

[Spiffy]

I think England's performances are down to a mix of player talent/selection/tactics.
How can SB ignore the likes of Ojomoh (great on his last outing) and Radwan (speed to burn, footwork, scores tries for fun) while persevering with decent but fairly journeymen-like players like Dingwall/Steward/Roebuck?
How can he keep selecting three look-alikes in the back row with no heavyweight carrier or good lineout option?
Why is the primary tactic to kick away good possession instead of keeping ball in hand?
Why is there an apparent lack of trust in the team leaders to make on field decisions and play what's in front of them rather than play by numbers to a rigid game plan?
It was interesting that in today's game England had better territory and possession stats than Ireland, yet lost quite comprehensively.
Why can't they convert these advantages into points?
SB can't seen to get the best out of the current lot, but that is not the best squad he could name.

[FKAS]

1/5 should lead to change despite the 12 match run, the bookends are pretty bad

1/5 would be an appalling tournament for us but would be a bit football to knee jerk sack Borthwick. Had the AIs been awful then maybe it would be on the cards but after a successful AIs I just can't see him biting the bullet. They'd be some very uncomfortable questions aimed at him, especially given the cost of retaining all his current coaches with some possibly not renewed on the back of a poor 6N. They'd be a lot of heat heading into the summer.

….where did I say sack Borthwick? I said change…

Apologies I took change to mean change at the top.

[p/d]

Let’s not beat ourselves up. We are on a journey of development.

[fivepointer]

You dont become a bad team overnight comment is often wheeled out when a team produces a dud performance after some good showings.

But England have blown this theory apart by becoming a bad team overnight, despite being pretty the same team we put out in the autumn.

How can this be? I'm genuinely perplexed by the falling off of standards over the last two weeks.

Thankfully we have a rest week. So SB has time to sort through the wreckage but its clear something has to change and big calls will need to be made.

[FKAS]

Changes to the training squad will be illuminating

Where can we source additional physicality, particularly I'm the backrow? That's one I'd the big questions.

[Oakboy]

Changes to the training squad will be illuminating

Where can we source additional physicality, particularly I'm the backrow? That's one I'd the big questions.

Tom Willis is available! Picking him for the last two 6N matches might change a lot. As a short-term fix, why not?

[p/d]

So the plan is to make changes to the squad and hope that fixes everything for trip Rome. Then off to Paris with renewed optimism ……

Perhaps we could ask Tom Willis if he would like a game.

[p/d]

Or perhaps starting Pepper and Underhill to shut down Russell was as much a folly as picking a Lions back row to take on Ireland.

This isn’t about changing squad players it’s about playing smart and coaching smart.

SA would have yanked Ford off yesterday, straight swap with Smith. Not sacrificed the fb.

[Mikey Brown]

That was one of the least enjoyable games I’ve seen for a long time.

Ireland looked like their ruthless, methodical selves and I have no idea how much they were making us look bad or we were helping them.

There were at least a dozen moments it looked as though the players had never even encountered a ball before, let alone the other players on their team.

That defensive display was ridiculous. It does give some perspective to Freemans showing at 13 though. Why did we sign El-Abd again? To convert him in to a forwards coach?

[LongForgotten]

SA would have yanked Ford off

Anything for an endorphin rush

[Stom]

I (luckily) did not see the game yesterday. Well...all the things I said about the Scotland game seem to ring true again, judging by the comments here.

Looks like Sortitout Beatch has been found out in this style of play.

So where do we go?

[Oakboy]

So the plan is to make changes to the squad and hope that fixes everything for trip Rome. Then off to Paris with renewed optimism ……

Perhaps we could ask Tom Willis if he would like a game.

I'd imagine that Fisilau will come into the reckoning. You are right with your other post. It is pointless to change personnel without changing the system.

I'd start CCS, Pollock and Willis with Fisilau on the bench. For various reasons all of Earl, Curry, Underhill and Pepper look knackered physically and shell-shocked mentally. That's not to write off any of the four, just to get them out of the firing line for a while.

[Captainhaircut]

So the plan is to make changes to the squad and hope that fixes everything for trip Rome. Then off to Paris with renewed optimism ……

Perhaps we could ask Tom Willis if he would like a game.

I'd imagine that Fisilau will come into the reckoning. You are right with your other post. It is pointless to change personnel without changing the system.

I'd start CCS, Pollock and Willis with Fisilau on the bench. For various reasons all of Earl, Curry, Underhill and Pepper look knackered physically and shell-shocked mentally. That's not to write off any of the four, just to get them out of the firing line for a while.

That backrow in no way solves our major problem which is protecting our own ball. Despite being woeful in many places in the last 2 games, we could have got away with it if we could clear out properly. We had plenty of entries in both games but kept fucking it.

CCS at the breakdown is horrendous so offers us nothing there. His main benefit is as a primary carrier which is also the role of Willis or Earl.

Unless we’re making significant tight 5 changes (Genge is a very big downgrade on Baxter at the breakdown), then that backrow is never going to work.

[Stom]

So the plan is to make changes to the squad and hope that fixes everything for trip Rome. Then off to Paris with renewed optimism ……

Perhaps we could ask Tom Willis if he would like a game.

I'd imagine that Fisilau will come into the reckoning. You are right with your other post. It is pointless to change personnel without changing the system.

I'd start CCS, Pollock and Willis with Fisilau on the bench. For various reasons all of Earl, Curry, Underhill and Pepper look knackered physically and shell-shocked mentally. That's not to write off any of the four, just to get them out of the firing line for a while.

Having not watched the game, these kind of suggestions really get to me...

Because when we talk about hitting rucks with intensity, hitting the line with aggression, and being, generally, high octane players who push the limits... then Earl, Curry, and Underhill tick every single box. While CCS most definitely does not.

When the best players we have available for playing with intensity are...not playing with intensity..

Maybe they're not the problem.

[Banquo]

Could it be the coaches just aren’t that good. Players, individually and collectively, just aren’t that good.

We - or some anyway - dismiss the defeat to Scotland as a blip then boast about a win v NZ as clarification. Isolate individual shortcomings for the purpose of defending a club favourite. And that is before we put blame on the shoulders of a Lions tour.

As we build for the next WC we should park the delusion and reset the development.

Nailed imo.

[Banquo]

Changes to the training squad will be illuminating

Where can we source additional physicality, particularly I'm the backrow? That's one I'd the big questions.

Yep, it’s the glaringly obvious problem though I’d add decision making at the breakdown as part of that.

Teams have worked out our weak points. We don’t seem to do the same.

[Banquo]

So the plan is to make changes to the squad and hope that fixes everything for trip Rome. Then off to Paris with renewed optimism ……

Perhaps we could ask Tom Willis if he would like a game.

I'd imagine that Fisilau will come into the reckoning. You are right with your other post. It is pointless to change personnel without changing the system.

I'd start CCS, Pollock and Willis with Fisilau on the bench. For various reasons all of Earl, Curry, Underhill and Pepper look knackered physically and shell-shocked mentally. That's not to write off any of the four, just to get them out of the firing line for a while.

That backrow in no way solves our major problem which is protecting our own ball. Despite being woeful in many places in the last 2 games, we could have got away with it if we could clear out properly. We had plenty of entries in both games but kept fucking it.

CCS at the breakdown is horrendous so offers us nothing there. His main benefit is as a primary carrier which is also the role of Willis or Earl.

Unless we’re making significant tight 5 changes (Genge is a very big downgrade on Baxter at the breakdown), then that backrow is never going to work.

I’ll profoundly agree on ball protection but the back row are a huge part of that to your clearing out point. Accuracy in ball presentation was awful yesterday, some down to the smart way Ireland pick which breakdowns to attack and how.
We need carriers- this is not new- and we needed much cannier operators at the breakdown tbh. The problem there is that our best breakdown guys in different configurations have been beaten up two games in a row.

[Banquo]

Was at the game so have only read through the last few pages but is anyone that surprised by these results? Borthwick has raised our expectations with recent results largely based upon a kicking game plan which has now been worked out. If you consider the likes of Genge and Itoje they are among our better players but you wouldn’t have them as world class.

The biggest error Borthwick has made is loyalty to the older guys (eg Davison, Steward, Dingwall and Rodd) rather than being brutal to try to find top class talent. We have unbelievable depth so should look for ceiling players rather than relying on good club players stepping up. Ultimately the recent losses can be attributed to unforced errors by players which Borthwick can do little about.

Steward, Rodd and Dingwall are 25, 25, and 26 respectively so hardly old, and Davison is about 4th choice.

I keep hearing about unbelievable talent….but who is this? I mean there are some contenders around but…unbelievable’?