Wales -vs- RSA

[stud muffin]

Think we need Patchell and Owen Williams in the mix somewhere to give us some vision in the backs

[wayneha50]

hopefully this result doesnt paper our the huge gaping chasms in our game but i'm sure that what will happen

going to be a long, hard 6N

[Buggaluggs]

Biggs had a good game. Scrappy and poachy. I think its the centers that are weak. J Davies crabbing across the field and giving the wings no room. Scott doing the hokey pokey and getting nowhere. They're both great against average opposition, but left wanting against decent international centers.

[Buggaluggs]

Stan: "It was nice to transfer what we've done in training. The attitude of the players has been brilliant. We targeted three or four wins and we made that target. I think we were quite comfortable for 80 minutes, but we were disappointed with the [South African] score."

That was an accurate reflection of what you do in training??
Target 3 OR 4? Surely the target was 4 wins - and you failed.

[wayneha50]

Stan: "It was nice to transfer what we've done in training. The attitude of the players has been brilliant. We targeted three or four wins and we made that target. I think we were quite comfortable for 80 minutes, but we were disappointed with the [South African] score."

That was an accurate reflection of what you do in training??
Target 3 OR 4? Surely the target was 4 wins - and you failed.

I fear looking reading the above that Howley is in denial - we're miles behind the top teams & getting further away.

[pompey-zebra]

I fear looking reading the above that Howley is in denial - we're miles behind the top teams & getting further away.[/quote]
In the Guardian Howley said before the SA game, depending on whether Wales win "its either a very good autumn series or we've come up short ". So on that basis, having won three out of four AI's, is it a really good series for Wales?

[normanski]

There's no hope for us in the six nations. We'll be lucky to win the wooden spoon.

[Sourdust]

This is such a bloody weird feeling. If you'd offered me a 1pt win this morning, I'd have bitten your arm off. If you'd offered 14pts, I'd have just laughed.

Biggest ever win over SA. Biggest win against one of "the big three" in over 40 years. And yet here we all are feeling... meh.

Today was easily our best showing of the autumn; by which I mean we actually looked competent for sustained periods, and even good in brief flashes. But we're still pretty rudderless, lacking in ideas, and frankly boring to watch. It's a good win but in our hearts we know that pretty much any Wales team of 2008-15 would have put 25-35 points on the Boks today. Nothing about this performance changed my dread of the 6N coming up.

We can't really even say "at least we're not SA", because you know that they'll fix this pretty quickly and be humping us again soon. It's Italy next up, and while that's a pretty big banana skin now, at least it gives us a chance of some momentum. Let's hope this win inspires the team more than it does us.

[Lizard]

A deserved win by Wales but my oath, that was a hard watch.

[Son of Mathonwy]

On paper it sounds fine, 3 wins from 4, best win ever against SA, safely in the top 8.

But... that was a dreadful SA team, who we've been queuing up to beat this Autumn, Italy included,
...and we were absolutely dreadful against Australia and Japan,
...and England and Ireland are clearly a class apart from us at the moment (and we ought to be worried about Scotland).
...and what have we learnt? We can manage without Roberts but Scott is not much better? Tipuric is really good (not exactly a new discovery)? Liam and Leigh could be switched (but we're too conservative to try it for more than one match)? Sam Davies is ahead of Anscombe (but was barely given a chance to show what he can do... drop goals excepted)? We don't need Warburton to be captain? And nothing whatsoever about Keelan Giles...

Howley's here for this season, so I guess we have no choice but to watch as his vision unfolds. I just hope this really is a foundation upon which we will build ie improve. Coz the level we're at right now is not good enough. We only seem ok because SA and France are in a worse place (but for how long?).

[MrK]

Think we need Patchell and Owen Williams in the mix somewhere to give us some vision in the backs

I agree

I think Id now like to see the following squad for the 6N

LH - Jenkins, Smith, Evans
HK - Owens, Baldwin, Parry
TH - Francis, Lee, D Lewis
2R - AWJ, Davies, Charteris, Ball,
BS - Warburton, Boyd, Cracknell
OS - Tiprurc, J Davies
N8 - Faletau, Moriaty

SH - Webb, G Davies, ??
OH -Davies, Biggar
IC - Patchell, O Williams
OC - Davies, S WIlliams, T Morgan Allen or Beck- whoevers fit
B3 - North, L Williams, Halfpenny, Giles, T James S Evans,

[Digby]

Why was the crowd only around 55k or so?

I'm assuming there's some development work going on in the stand with the giant flag up behind the posts?

[Sandydragon]

Why was the crowd only around 55k or so?

I'm assuming there's some development work going on in the stand with the giant flag up behind the posts?

Nope. It was full for Japan. Just can't sell full price tickets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Digby]

Ah, then hopefully it's a good thing they're at least trying to start to play some rugby

[Son of Mathonwy]

Think we need Patchell and Owen Williams in the mix somewhere to give us some vision in the backs

I agree

I think Id now like to see the following squad for the 6N

LH - Jenkins, Smith, Evans
HK - Owens, Baldwin, Parry
TH - Francis, Lee, D Lewis
2R - AWJ, Davies, Charteris, Ball,
BS - Warburton, Boyd, Cracknell
OS - Tiprurc, J Davies
N8 - Faletau, Moriaty

SH - Webb, G Davies, ??
OH -Davies, Biggar
IC - Patchell, O Williams
OC - Davies, S WIlliams, T Morgan Allen or Beck- whoevers fit
B3 - North, L Williams, Halfpenny, Giles, T James S Evans,

Maybe Habberfield for 3rd SH?

IC is a big issue. Scott was a little better than Roberts, but did not impress. And has not impressed for the Scarlets.
Not sure, but don't think Owen Watkin will be fit in time for the 6N, unfortunately.
Patchell would potentially be an option, but he plays 10 for the Scarlets so would be a gamble.
I don't think Owen Williams is even on the radar, but has he ever played centre?
Beck is making a case for his recall to the squad, but he's usually a 13.
Sam Davies could do a useful job there, but he's a 10 and I don't want his career wrecked.
How long before Hadleigh Parkes is Welsh-qualified? Not this season I think, otherwise he might be our best option.
I don't see enough of Tyler Morgan, Dixon or Allen to know if they could do a good job at 12.

So it's not easy at all.
I think we should persevere with Scott and hope that he shines a bit more outside of Sam Davies (that is assuming Sam gets any meaningful game time there, which is doubtful).
If Patchell got any time at 12 he'd be a serious contender, but he wants to play 10 as far as I know.
I'd bring Parkes in once he's WQ, but I expect things will have changed by then...

Also consider Ben John for OC.

For wing we should also look at Ashton Hewitt.
James is too old IMO.
if Leigh or Liam get injured we should bring Dan Evans into the squad.

[Sandydragon]

Patchells defence can be a bit hit and miss. As much as he would offer real creativity, I'm not sure he would be that reliable without the ball. Scott Williams is nearer where we need an international centre to be, whilst not being brilliant, he does offer more than Roberts. Both centres need to work on their game, particularly this habit of crabbing across the field.

[MrK]

Patchells defence can be a bit hit and miss. As much as he would offer real creativity, I'm not sure he would be that reliable without the ball. Scott Williams is nearer where we need an international centre to be, whilst not being brilliant, he does offer more than Roberts. Both centres need to work on their game, particularly this habit of crabbing across the field.

From what I understand, the Patchell defence question is the big issue for Team Wales, they dont think hes strong enough there and only view him as a FB

Owen Williams has played Centre though, for Leicester, this season ..so should at least get a look in I think.

[Numbers]

Think we need Patchell and Owen Williams in the mix somewhere to give us some vision in the backs

I agree

I think Id now like to see the following squad for the 6N

LH - Jenkins, Smith, Evans
HK - Owens, Baldwin, Parry
TH - Francis, Lee, D Lewis
2R - AWJ, Davies, Charteris, Ball,
BS - Warburton, Boyd, Cracknell
OS - Tiprurc, J Davies
N8 - Faletau, Moriaty

SH - Webb, G Davies, ??
OH -Davies, Biggar
IC - Patchell, O Williams
OC - Davies, S WIlliams, T Morgan Allen or Beck- whoevers fit
B3 - North, L Williams, Halfpenny, Giles, T James S Evans,

Maybe Habberfield for 3rd SH?

IC is a big issue. Scott was a little better than Roberts, but did not impress. And has not impressed for the Scarlets.
Not sure, but don't think Owen Watkin will be fit in time for the 6N, unfortunately.
Patchell would potentially be an option, but he plays 10 for the Scarlets so would be a gamble.
I don't think Owen Williams is even on the radar, but has he ever played centre?
Beck is making a case for his recall to the squad, but he's usually a 13.
Sam Davies could do a useful job there, but he's a 10 and I don't want his career wrecked.
How long before Hadleigh Parkes is Welsh-qualified? Not this season I think, otherwise he might be our best option.
I don't see enough of Tyler Morgan, Dixon or Allen to know if they could do a good job at 12.

So it's not easy at all.
I think we should persevere with Scott and hope that he shines a bit more outside of Sam Davies (that is assuming Sam gets any meaningful game time there, which is doubtful).
If Patchell got any time at 12 he'd be a serious contender, but he wants to play 10 as far as I know.
I'd bring Parkes in once he's WQ, but I expect things will have changed by then...

Also consider Ben John for OC.

For wing we should also look at Ashton Hewitt.
James is too old IMO.
if Leigh or Liam get injured we should bring Dan Evans into the squad.

Scott Williams has won MOM the match on 2 occassions I think for Scarlets this year so not sure what you mean by not playing well for them, Owen Watkin has had a handful of games at regional level and doesn't offer creativity from what I have seen just a decent step and good strength.

Owen Williams has been playing 12 for Leicester regularly as they have Freddie Burns at 10, he would be a realistic option but I don't think his face ftis perhaps as he is continually overlooked.

Dixon is very much in the Jamie Roberts mould, Tyler Morgan is a 13 as is Corey Allen iirc.

Scott Wiliams is a skillful player, you can't expect him to work miracles with the ball when we are passing the ball across the backline stood stock still.

Sam Davies is the most creative 10 we have, Patchell I don't think has the speed of accurate decision making for a 10 at international level (sometimes not at regional level even).

[Sandydragon]

Patchells defence can be a bit hit and miss. As much as he would offer real creativity, I'm not sure he would be that reliable without the ball. Scott Williams is nearer where we need an international centre to be, whilst not being brilliant, he does offer more than Roberts. Both centres need to work on their game, particularly this habit of crabbing across the field.

From what I understand, the Patchell defence question is the big issue for Team Wales, they dont think hes strong enough there and only view him as a FB

Owen Williams has played Centre though, for Leicester, this season ..so should at least get a look in I think.

I don't watch much English club rugby but there has been plenty of reports that suggest he is worth a look. We aren't exactly overwhelmed with talent so ignoring a potential player seems a bit daft.

Another player who has been talked about in the centre, albeit OC, is Hallam Amos who is a very good footballer, but I am struggling to remember the last time he played in the centres for the dragons.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I agree

I think Id now like to see the following squad for the 6N

LH - Jenkins, Smith, Evans
HK - Owens, Baldwin, Parry
TH - Francis, Lee, D Lewis
2R - AWJ, Davies, Charteris, Ball,
BS - Warburton, Boyd, Cracknell
OS - Tiprurc, J Davies
N8 - Faletau, Moriaty

SH - Webb, G Davies, ??
OH -Davies, Biggar
IC - Patchell, O Williams
OC - Davies, S WIlliams, T Morgan Allen or Beck- whoevers fit
B3 - North, L Williams, Halfpenny, Giles, T James S Evans,

Maybe Habberfield for 3rd SH?

IC is a big issue. Scott was a little better than Roberts, but did not impress. And has not impressed for the Scarlets.
Not sure, but don't think Owen Watkin will be fit in time for the 6N, unfortunately.
Patchell would potentially be an option, but he plays 10 for the Scarlets so would be a gamble.
I don't think Owen Williams is even on the radar, but has he ever played centre?
Beck is making a case for his recall to the squad, but he's usually a 13.
Sam Davies could do a useful job there, but he's a 10 and I don't want his career wrecked.
How long before Hadleigh Parkes is Welsh-qualified? Not this season I think, otherwise he might be our best option.
I don't see enough of Tyler Morgan, Dixon or Allen to know if they could do a good job at 12.

So it's not easy at all.
I think we should persevere with Scott and hope that he shines a bit more outside of Sam Davies (that is assuming Sam gets any meaningful game time there, which is doubtful).
If Patchell got any time at 12 he'd be a serious contender, but he wants to play 10 as far as I know.
I'd bring Parkes in once he's WQ, but I expect things will have changed by then...

Also consider Ben John for OC.

For wing we should also look at Ashton Hewitt.
James is too old IMO.
if Leigh or Liam get injured we should bring Dan Evans into the squad.

Scott Williams has won MOM the match on 2 occassions I think for Scarlets this year so not sure what you mean by not playing well for them, Owen Watkin has had a handful of games at regional level and doesn't offer creativity from what I have seen just a decent step and good strength.

Owen Williams has been playing 12 for Leicester regularly as they have Freddie Burns at 10, he would be a realistic option but I don't think his face ftis perhaps as he is continually overlooked.

Dixon is very much in the Jamie Roberts mould, Tyler Morgan is a 13 as is Corey Allen iirc.

Scott Wiliams is a skillful player, you can't expect him to work miracles with the ball when we are passing the ball across the backline stood stock still.

Sam Davies is the most creative 10 we have, Patchell I don't think has the speed of accurate decision making for a 10 at international level (sometimes not at regional level even).

Ok, I may well have missed Scott's good matches. Agreed he's certainly skillful and is our best current option.

I haven't seen Owen Williams play at 12 (in fact I haven't see him play at all for a while), but if he's decent there he should definitely be considered. More likely he will continue to be invisible to the WRU.

True, despite promise it's too early to know what Watkin is going to be capable of, just hope he recovers well and has a good end of season at the Os.

[Sandydragon]

Dixon is very much in the Jamie Roberts mould, Tyler Morgan is a 13 as is Corey Allen iirc.

Agreed on both counts. Footballing ICs are in short supply. Converting a fly half is probably the most useful option, but which one to look at, given the time it might take. That said, England seem to be managing pretty well with 2 flyhalfs at the moment.

Forget Hook, Ive more chance of playing for Wales at the moment, and Henson is obviously not a serious long term contender.

Patchell has the distribution but I'm not sure about vision or defence.
Davies would probably be better off at flyhalf.
Could Biggar move to 12?
Anscombe might be better with more time on his hands.

Actually, as I think this through I realise its pointless because the current rgime is obsessed with size. None of the above are really going to manage the crash bang wallop approach which makes it all a bit academic and I suspect that Owen Watkin is the long term successor (who has shown a few nice touches for the U20s to give him credit).

[Numbers]

Agreed on both counts. Footballing ICs are in short supply. Converting a fly half is probably the most useful option, but which one to look at, given the time it might take. That said, England seem to be managing pretty well with 2 flyhalfs at the moment.

Forget Hook, Ive more chance of playing for Wales at the moment, and Henson is obviously not a serious long term contender.

Patchell has the distribution but I'm not sure about vision or defence.
Davies would probably be better off at flyhalf.
Could Biggar move to 12?
Anscombe might be better with more time on his hands.

Actually, as I think this through I realise its pointless because the current rgime is obsessed with size. None of the above are really going to manage the crash bang wallop approach which makes it all a bit academic and I suspect that Owen Watkin is the long term successor (who has shown a few nice touches for the U20s to give him credit).

We don't really need a hugely creative 12, what we need is a more creative 10 (one that actually challenges the defensive line) and more go forward ball to play with.

So in summary Sam Davies

[Sourdust]

Biggar can attack the line well, he's done so for Os plenty. Presumably he has his pocket money docked if he does it for Wales.

If we're serious about upping the ante in attack then Davies has to be in there, and once we rediscover that giving a 10 his head can work, maybe let Biggar have a go at it again.

Similarly, we criticize ScottW for a lack of creative input and distribution. I can't help remembering that his first (I think?) Wales cap was at Twickenham in the RWC11 warm-ups. He came on at FLY-HALF and played for 12 or so minutes, during which Wales scored two tries. So he wasn't born conservative, either. Our system has coached "flair" out of these players. That's what has to stop.

[Sandydragon]

In the favour of Scott and JD2 is their club partnership which has of course been disrupted but should bear some fruit as they get more game time together. Llanelli seem capable under Steven Jones of creating and scoring tries, maybe that will be brought into the Welsh set up, assuming that the Welsh management allow the team to play that way.

[Numbers]

Biggar can attack the line well, he's done so for Os plenty. Presumably he has his pocket money docked if he does it for Wales.

If we're serious about upping the ante in attack then Davies has to be in there, and once we rediscover that giving a 10 his head can work, maybe let Biggar have a go at it again.

Similarly, we criticize ScottW for a lack of creative input and distribution. I can't help remembering that his first (I think?) Wales cap was at Twickenham in the RWC11 warm-ups. He came on at FLY-HALF and played for 12 or so minutes, during which Wales scored two tries. So he wasn't born conservative, either. Our system has coached "flair" out of these players. That's what has to stop.

I don't think Biggar can attack the line well, he never takes the ball up flat, this is the one thing holding him back.

The difference is there to see at the Os when you watch them play with Sam Davies @ 10.