French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
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French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Comparing the procedure and sanctions in their meetings with Ulster, Clermont Auvergne are Furious at the gouging accusations against their young prop. They are comparing the way this incident was handled with the handling of a Rory Best incident the previous week..
Articles in French below.
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/champions ... tory.shtml
Rory Best incident here below. It didn't go in front of the commission as deemed not intentional
Clermont player gets 7 weeks for this, thanks to the players very clean record (Commission agreed the gesture wasn't intentional)
I myself, believe that the French tend to exaggerate the unfairness, but that it is still present. Still can't understand how saying sorry takes weeks off your sanction. These commissions are also held in English which is understandable of course, but this does affect the way a defending French/Argentinian/Italian player can expresses themselves.
Articles in French below.
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/champions ... tory.shtml
Rory Best incident here below. It didn't go in front of the commission as deemed not intentional
Clermont player gets 7 weeks for this, thanks to the players very clean record (Commission agreed the gesture wasn't intentional)
I myself, believe that the French tend to exaggerate the unfairness, but that it is still present. Still can't understand how saying sorry takes weeks off your sanction. These commissions are also held in English which is understandable of course, but this does affect the way a defending French/Argentinian/Italian player can expresses themselves.
- cashead
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
The judiciary is broken and inconsistent. In other news, water is wet and night follows day.
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- Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Yeah, I don't think this is either news or evidence that the French are being systematically picked on. I think the random wheel of discipline happened to end up pointing to a ban for Falgoux, while another spin ended up with Best being let off.cashead wrote:The judiciary is broken and inconsistent. In other news, water is wet and night follows day.
Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
The wheel of discipline rarely points positively for the French though.Puja wrote:Yeah, I don't think this is either news or evidence that the French are being systematically picked on. I think the random wheel of discipline happened to end up pointing to a ban for Falgoux, while another spin ended up with Best being let off.cashead wrote:The judiciary is broken and inconsistent. In other news, water is wet and night follows day.
Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Shall we note Pape getting nothing for his dive? Or for that matter kneeing Heaslip last year.Adder wrote:The wheel of discipline rarely points positively for the French though.Puja wrote:Yeah, I don't think this is either news or evidence that the French are being systematically picked on. I think the random wheel of discipline happened to end up pointing to a ban for Falgoux, while another spin ended up with Best being let off.cashead wrote:The judiciary is broken and inconsistent. In other news, water is wet and night follows day.
Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Shall we note Pape getting nothing for his dive?
Has anyone been punished for that yet? he did get a warning

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/31487235Or for that matter kneeing Heaslip last year.
10 weeks , no?
SOB got a week for punching him in the Plexus during the RWC2015
BTW I'm not saying that All French are innocent, just that punishments handed to them seem to be longer.
- Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Ah. Mea culpa - I could have sworn that there was a French player who got away with murder just before the RWC and I thought it was Pape, but my memory's not great at the best of times.Adder wrote:Shall we note Pape getting nothing for his dive?
Has anyone been punished for that yet? he did get a warning
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/31487235Or for that matter kneeing Heaslip last year.
10 weeks , no?
SOB got a week for punching him in the Plexus during the RWC2015
BTW I'm not saying that All French are innocent, just that punishments handed to them seem to be longer.
Puja
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Huget put in an awful stamp which the French authorities decided didn't need a hearing because that would force a ban, though Ireland did similar with one of their props.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
The French always come off worse with accusations of gouging and the pacific islands for roughness.
Some of the stuff happening is nonsense, first game of the season Glasgow v Connaught the ref and TMO had a discussion about a dangerously low tackle because the fly half got his knee twisted.
Some of the stuff happening is nonsense, first game of the season Glasgow v Connaught the ref and TMO had a discussion about a dangerously low tackle because the fly half got his knee twisted.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I do agree with this.whatisthejava wrote:The French always come off worse with accusations of gouging and the pacific islands for roughness.
I have long held the opinion that there needs to be a global disciplinary panel set up by world rugby that all professional competitions need to be signed up to and use. That way all bans can be compared and people held accountable if there are uneven bans handed out.
As things stand IIRC the pro 12, premiership, Top 12, Euro competitions and international rugby all use different panels. It should be standardised under one group IMO.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I still don't think the would fix anything , look at the nonsense we ha at the WC where Ford and JG were cited for a dangerous tackle, banned even though the ref thought there was nothing in it and then the appeal was 2 days before the game, it was a complete joke of a situation caused by some very stringent reading of the rules by people unqualified.Big D wrote:I do agree with this.whatisthejava wrote:The French always come off worse with accusations of gouging and the pacific islands for roughness.
I have long held the opinion that there needs to be a global disciplinary panel set up by world rugby that all professional competitions need to be signed up to and use. That way all bans can be compared and people held accountable if there are uneven bans handed out.
As things stand IIRC the pro 12, premiership, Top 12, Euro competitions and international rugby all use different panels. It should be standardised under one group IMO.
You also have to look at Hartleys red card and no that he was banned with the specific goal of being available for England
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I think it would help if set up correctly. The Gray/Ford thing was a nonsense.whatisthejava wrote:I still don't think the would fix anything , look at the nonsense we ha at the WC where Ford and JG were cited for a dangerous tackle, banned even though the ref thought there was nothing in it and then the appeal was 2 days before the game, it was a complete joke of a situation caused by some very stringent reading of the rules by people unqualified.Big D wrote:I do agree with this.whatisthejava wrote:The French always come off worse with accusations of gouging and the pacific islands for roughness.
I have long held the opinion that there needs to be a global disciplinary panel set up by world rugby that all professional competitions need to be signed up to and use. That way all bans can be compared and people held accountable if there are uneven bans handed out.
As things stand IIRC the pro 12, premiership, Top 12, Euro competitions and international rugby all use different panels. It should be standardised under one group IMO.
You also have to look at Hartleys red card and no that he was banned with the specific goal of being available for England
An independent global panel (set up correctly say 2 ex players and a lawyer or whatever) could have NZ/Oz/Argentinian people sitting in making the decisions so in theory player suspensions wouldn't be made so player x was available for country y. If they were then questions could be asked about fairness. As things stand in domestic league rugby the RFU, PRO 12, TOP12, Super Rugby don't need to worry about being consistent with each other and can pretty much hand out what ever length bans suits their agenda at the time. I am not even sure what power world rugby have to hold them accountable.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Big D wrote:I think it would help if set up correctly. The Gray/Ford thing was a nonsense.whatisthejava wrote:I still don't think the would fix anything , look at the nonsense we ha at the WC where Ford and JG were cited for a dangerous tackle, banned even though the ref thought there was nothing in it and then the appeal was 2 days before the game, it was a complete joke of a situation caused by some very stringent reading of the rules by people unqualified.Big D wrote:
I do agree with this.
I have long held the opinion that there needs to be a global disciplinary panel set up by world rugby that all professional competitions need to be signed up to and use. That way all bans can be compared and people held accountable if there are uneven bans handed out.
As things stand IIRC the pro 12, premiership, Top 12, Euro competitions and international rugby all use different panels. It should be standardised under one group IMO.
You also have to look at Hartleys red card and no that he was banned with the specific goal of being available for England
An independent global panel (set up correctly say 2 ex players and a lawyer or whatever) could have NZ/Oz/Argentinian people sitting in making the decisions so in theory player suspensions wouldn't be made so player x was available for country y. If they were then questions could be asked about fairness. As things stand in domestic league rugby the RFU, PRO 12, TOP12, Super Rugby don't need to worry about being consistent with each other and can pretty much hand out what ever length bans suits their agenda at the time. I am not even sure what power world rugby have to hold them accountable.
Occasionally WR ask for clarification whenever something weird or clearly not quite right but you never hear if anything happens after that
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I don't think anyone defends the Gray/Ford thing; but the Hartley one is tin-foil-hat time.whatisthejava wrote:I still don't think the would fix anything , look at the nonsense we ha at the WC where Ford and JG were cited for a dangerous tackle, banned even though the ref thought there was nothing in it and then the appeal was 2 days before the game, it was a complete joke of a situation caused by some very stringent reading of the rules by people unqualified.
You also have to look at Hartleys red card and no that he was banned with the specific goal of being available for England
Why would the Welsh and Scottich (IIRC) disciplinary panel be so interested in making Hartley available for england? and why is a conspiracy needed to come up with the punishment that basically everyone (who'd read WR guidelines) actually expected?
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I don't really suspect that Scottish officials are always looking for the best result for Scotland but bans for high profile players that are not called Chris Ashton seem to always be well timed so they don't lose international game time.
Hartley is an interesting case because after 60 weeks of bans , im surprised there isn't a multiplier for repeat offenders.
If I smacked someone like that in the street after punching, biting and gouching someone I would end up with much more than 6 weeks in the clink
Hartley is an interesting case because after 60 weeks of bans , im surprised there isn't a multiplier for repeat offenders.
If I smacked someone like that in the street after punching, biting and gouching someone I would end up with much more than 6 weeks in the clink
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
I seem to remember Hartley missing a RWC and a Lions tour because if his indisciplin - which rather count against a conspiracy.
You may be surprised that there isn't a multiplier, and you'd be far from alone in thinking there should be - but until there is one, we can't be too surprised when it's not applied.
Just about everything that happens on a rugby pitch would land people in real trouble if carried out on the street. It's never been relevant (even though several [including myself] wouldn't have minded the cops getting involved against Callum Clarke, Duncan McCrae or that Argentine who "tackled" the ref in Italy recently)
You may be surprised that there isn't a multiplier, and you'd be far from alone in thinking there should be - but until there is one, we can't be too surprised when it's not applied.
Just about everything that happens on a rugby pitch would land people in real trouble if carried out on the street. It's never been relevant (even though several [including myself] wouldn't have minded the cops getting involved against Callum Clarke, Duncan McCrae or that Argentine who "tackled" the ref in Italy recently)
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Re: French teams are grumbling abouthé factureThet the unfairness of citing commission
Thé fact is it has been that way for decades...
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
There are 3 fundamental problems. First is a lack of independence. It is plain wrong that an Irish panel can decide whether an Ulster player receives a ban which would affect the national team. Second is a lack of consistency. Whilst some argue that that comes from the first problem, it is an inherent difficulty with having amateurs involved at every level of the citing process. The decision to cite seems largely press driven rather than a proper evaluation of what occurred in the game. The panels pay little to no regard to what's gone before - ok I know that not everyone has a common law system but still - and arbitrarily seem to decide not to apply the sanctions set out. Finally there are insuficient appeals.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
Id add that you second point is exacerbated by the use of different panels for different competitions. Its a recipe for a lack of consistency.
I also find it baffling that previous offences are not automatically considered.
I also find it baffling that previous offences are not automatically considered.
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Re: French teams are grumbling about the unfairness of citing commission
It really does have to be pretty serious for the police to get involved, but it has happened on occasion.Which Tyler wrote:I seem to remember Hartley missing a RWC and a Lions tour because if his indisciplin - which rather count against a conspiracy.
You may be surprised that there isn't a multiplier, and you'd be far from alone in thinking there should be - but until there is one, we can't be too surprised when it's not applied.
Just about everything that happens on a rugby pitch would land people in real trouble if carried out on the street. It's never been relevant (even though several [including myself] wouldn't have minded the cops getting involved against Callum Clarke, Duncan McCrae or that Argentine who "tackled" the ref in Italy recently)