Ch-ch-changes? Your team for the 2nd Test

[Numbers]

I see some of the papers are saying that Itoje and Warburton will come in which seems fair enough to me.

Yup. AWJ's experience doesn't provide enough weight to miss out the dynamism that Itoje brings. I'm not sure that AWJ should be in the bench either.

I like all 3 back row players individually, but as a unit they just didn't work on Saturday. Faletau is a class act and whilst you could argue that Stander will bring in driving play, Faletau can do the same but the point is that to do that, they cant be trying to shore up the breakdown to such a large degree. SOB can make a dent but seemed less effective at the ruck than someone like Warburton. As harsh as it seems, POM (who I rate highly) is probably the person to make way for Warburton. The question is then what do you want off the bench? A big carrying capability (Stander or perhaps SOB if POM starts) or Tipuric.

I'd be tempted to leave the backline alone. Farrell wasn't great on Saturday, but has been in decent form during the tour, more so than Sexton of late. If the pack can give him better ball, will he play better -of course. I'm not convinced by the playing of both flyhalves at the same time - it works when the pack is dominant, but we are unlikely to have that level of dominance in a test match.

There was some speculation in the Western Mail about Gatland dropping WIlliams for Halfpenny. I really hope he doesn't. All of the back 3 made some mistake, but frankly it was an error ridden performance across the team and the back 3 caused the ABs some real problems. Brining in Halfpenny to shore up defence isn't going to win us any games.

I felt a bit sorry for AWJ, he took a heavy knock early on and should perhaps have gone for an assessment, I thought he was no worse than Kruis who did some things well but turned the ball over at least twice in contact and was not sued as imposingly in the lineout to make him an essential starter.

Daly had a mixed bag, excellent slow up and then accelerate on the outside for the first Lions try, poor positioning for the ABs first try and gassed for the third try, not sure if North would have scored the first try, quite possibly up against Israel Dagg who isn't the biggest, hopefully we'll see one of the wingers on the bench for Saturday depending how they play tomorrow.

Watson and Williams played well, a couple of mistakes from Williams, notably for the third try when he failed to catch the ball coming over his shoulder, but also a couple of crucial turnovers from him.

The front row went ok, George being the standout, with Mako and Furlong getting through a lot of grunt, O'Brien was good in the loose not great at the breakdown.

Halfbacks were ok, centres were good.

[Numbers]

We've got Northern Hemisphere refs for the next two tests so hopefully that will have a bearing on the penalty count.

[Cameo]

It's so often the case that any number of the stats say one was competitive with and even better than NZ, and yet somehow there's always the scoreboard

true, its just interesting that we created maybe more chances than it seemed at the time; we dominated the lineout too, had respectable tackle stats. Yet we ceded too many turnovers and the tackle line...and possession.

I think the tackle line one is the key. Yeah, they didnt make many clean breaks but the All Blacks were making ground everytime they had the ball. Their attack was very very good up to about 10 metres out. Their tries were clinical but I think that generally they will be frustrated that they left points out there

[Banquo]

It's so often the case that any number of the stats say one was competitive with and even better than NZ, and yet somehow there's always the scoreboard

true, its just interesting that we created maybe more chances than it seemed at the time; we dominated the lineout too, had respectable tackle stats. Yet we ceded too many turnovers and the tackle line...and possession.

I think the tackle line one is the key. Yeah, they didnt make many clean breaks but the All Blacks were making ground everytime they had the ball. Their attack was very very good up to about 10 metres out. Their tries were clinical but I think that generally they will be frustrated that they left points out there

yep, their attacking the tackle line with offloads was exceptional

[Sandydragon]

We've got Northern Hemisphere refs for the next two tests so hopefully that will have a bearing on the penalty count.

Particularly with the rolling maul.

[Numbers]

We've got Northern Hemisphere refs for the next two tests so hopefully that will have a bearing on the penalty count.

Particularly with the rolling maul.

Aye, I thought the ball had already been handed back on a couple of occassions when the ABs decided to drop it and Peyper said it was ok as they had tackled the man with the ball, later on, after I suspect a word in his ear from our captain, he stated to the ABs that they must tackle immediately for it to be legal i.e. before the ball has been handed back by the lineout taker otherwise it'll be a penalty as the maul has formed

If we could get that going it would be a huge advantage (iirc we did get one penalty from a rolling maul but I think it was because they didn't let Faletau land before making contact)

[ALunpg]

We've got Northern Hemisphere refs for the next two tests so hopefully that will have a bearing on the penalty count.

Particularly with the rolling maul.

Aye, I thought the ball had already been handed back on a couple of occassions when the ABs decided to drop it and Peyper said it was ok as they had tackled the man with the ball, later on, after I suspect a word in his ear from our captain, he stated to the ABs that they must tackle immediately for it to be legal i.e. before the ball has been handed back by the lineout taker otherwise it'll be a penalty as the maul has formed

If we could get that going it would be a huge advantage (iirc we did get one penalty from a rolling maul but I think it was because they didn't let Faletau land before making contact)

Yep the AB were very street wise and who is to blame them...no one pinged so it was legal...the interpretation did not improve until much later ..but Roman Poitte was the touch judge staring at it and he did not do a lot ...so I will not hold my breath..

As for AWJ yes he is getting a lot of stick...but for me it's more we need a change up ...give the AB defence a differant problem to solve.

Now all this said as a long time follower of Gatlands selection ..he will may say ..the boys need a chance to redeem themselves ..so same 23 but some swap arounds.

Aso an interesting part .. from what I understood from last times post selection meeting interview was how much deliberation there was over maybe guessing say 5 to maybe 6 positions 1.5 hrs is a lot of debate so for sure ...it is a selection team as much as it is Gatland.

[Cameo]

We've got Northern Hemisphere refs for the next two tests so hopefully that will have a bearing on the penalty count.

Particularly with the rolling maul.

Aye, I thought the ball had already been handed back on a couple of occassions when the ABs decided to drop it and Peyper said it was ok as they had tackled the man with the ball, later on, after I suspect a word in his ear from our captain, he stated to the ABs that they must tackle immediately for it to be legal i.e. before the ball has been handed back by the lineout taker otherwise it'll be a penalty as the maul has formed

If we could get that going it would be a huge advantage (iirc we did get one penalty from a rolling maul but I think it was because they didn't let Faletau land before making contact)

It also depends on how many ABs are pulling it down. If the first man to contact the maul pulls it down in more or less one movement, then it doesnt matter if the catcher manages to tranfer the ball back halfway through going down (or if he does it before contact then it is just old fashioned obstruction). Agree though, different refs give it different amounts of time before calling it a maul.

Thought generally Peyper was decent though as he wasnt hugely noticeable

[ALunpg]

Your right about interpretation, the referee is the sole interpreter of the law . I don't fully agree with his interpretation of some of the sackings but hey ..that's just me

As a positive he and the touch judges did monitor the offside line because that is a game killer.

But all in all not a bad performance considering there can be polar differences in the differant intepretation in each of the hemispheres.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Particularly with the rolling maul.

Aye, I thought the ball had already been handed back on a couple of occassions when the ABs decided to drop it and Peyper said it was ok as they had tackled the man with the ball, later on, after I suspect a word in his ear from our captain, he stated to the ABs that they must tackle immediately for it to be legal i.e. before the ball has been handed back by the lineout taker otherwise it'll be a penalty as the maul has formed

If we could get that going it would be a huge advantage (iirc we did get one penalty from a rolling maul but I think it was because they didn't let Faletau land before making contact)

It also depends on how many ABs are pulling it down. If the first man to contact the maul pulls it down in more or less one movement, then it doesnt matter if the catcher manages to tranfer the ball back halfway through going down (or if he does it before contact then it is just old fashioned obstruction). Agree though, different refs give it different amounts of time before calling it a maul.

Thought generally Peyper was decent though as he wasnt hugely noticeable

I was just about to make the same point. We can't transfer before contact. And as long as there's only 1 of their men in there's no maul and he can sack away.

[Sandydragon]

Particularly with the rolling maul.

Aye, I thought the ball had already been handed back on a couple of occassions when the ABs decided to drop it and Peyper said it was ok as they had tackled the man with the ball, later on, after I suspect a word in his ear from our captain, he stated to the ABs that they must tackle immediately for it to be legal i.e. before the ball has been handed back by the lineout taker otherwise it'll be a penalty as the maul has formed

If we could get that going it would be a huge advantage (iirc we did get one penalty from a rolling maul but I think it was because they didn't let Faletau land before making contact)

It also depends on how many ABs are pulling it down. If the first man to contact the maul pulls it down in more or less one movement, then it doesnt matter if the catcher manages to tranfer the ball back halfway through going down (or if he does it before contact then it is just old fashioned obstruction). Agree though, different refs give it different amounts of time before calling it a maul.

Thought generally Peyper was decent though as he wasnt hugely noticeable

Aye, in that instance it's just a tackle. To be fair to Peyper, many refs would have yellow carded Teo for his tackle on SBW, or worse, so it's rarely worth blaming the ref, even if they are inconsistent, I.e. human.

[Stom]

I've finished the game, and I had a few thoughts. From an individual player perspective, it's hard to judge, but I worry about SOB and JD from an awareness perspective, and about Furlong, AWJ, POM from keeping up with the game. I also thought Daly did not do enough. Watson and Williams were both effective despite errors from both (it doesn't help when you're trying to force things).

I'm not a fan of the two Irish props, sorry... McGrath got shunted up his own ass at scrum time, and Furlong is one of the slowest back on his feet after every ruck.

So, for me:

Mako
George
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Williams
Te'o
Joseph
Watson
Halfpenny

Owens, Marler, Sinckler, Lawes/Henderson, Stander, Webb, Farrell, Daly

I'm unenthused with 1/2p at FB, but I don't see many choices in the back 3, tbh, and I did not think Daly was good enough to hang onto his shirt. Maybe he is, and we keep the back3 as is... Farrell was shunt, and to take Te'o off instead of him was crazy, I felt so sorry for Sexton: he kept looking for the pass, and there was nothing on for him anymore.

[morepork]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

[Stom]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

[Digby]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

Also we lost the game in the tackle collisions one out and at the breakdown, which is tough couple of points to bring the outside backs to task over

[Sandydragon]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

Also we lost the game in the tackle collisions one out and at the breakdown, which is tough couple of points to bring the outside backs to task over

I wouldn't blame the backs too much, they had poor possession for much of the match. My biggest criticism is the lack of composure some displayed, but that was a down side of the entire XV.

I'm stunned that our best player, JD2, is potentially dropped out of the squad. Perhaps one of he most underrated players in modern rugby.

[Digby]

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

Also we lost the game in the tackle collisions one out and at the breakdown, which is tough couple of points to bring the outside backs to task over

I wouldn't blame the backs too much, they had poor possession for much of the match. My biggest criticism is the lack of composure some displayed, but that was a down side of the entire XV.

I'm stunned that our best player, JD2, is potentially dropped out of the squad. Perhaps one of he most underrated players in modern rugby.

I like JD, but I thought he was poor on Saturday. Maybe he was supposed to be the shooter in defence, but I struggle with the idea that running up and missing everyone is actually helpful enough. Hadn't heard about him being dropped mind

[morepork]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

ll of the Lions chances at scoring came from counter attack. K Ioane is not just fast, he is aware of what is happening.

[Timbo]

The fact the Lions were most dangerous on counter attack/unstructured play would suggest they do have several quick, skillful outside backs. Our phase play and structured attack being crap suggests the game plan and coaching is more of an issue.

Have the Lions executed one strike move off first phase all tour? I can't recall seeing one.

[Stom]

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

Also we lost the game in the tackle collisions one out and at the breakdown, which is tough couple of points to bring the outside backs to task over

I wouldn't blame the backs too much, they had poor possession for much of the match. My biggest criticism is the lack of composure some displayed, but that was a down side of the entire XV.

I'm stunned that our best player, JD2, is potentially dropped out of the squad. Perhaps one of he most underrated players in modern rugby.

JD was never our best player. He was not bad, I'd give him a pass, but he wasn't our best player. And he's never underrated. It's like when any English fans say Mike Brown is/was underrated. Maybe, but the fact he cannot pass to a high enough standard drags him down. The same is true of Davies. If you cannot consistently pass to a high standard and be aware of your immediate passing and support options, you have no place in the best of the best of B&I.

There was one glaring case of him "supporting" SOB, when SOB was turned over. That never should have happened: he should have been there to hit that ruck. Or, actually he shouldn't, because he should have been there for an offload, but that's a different problem. He did it again with Murray, when we should have scored: he just was nowhere near a supporting position. He should have been on the shoulder ready for a pass, but he was nowhere close.

Now. he was by far not the worst offender, so don't get me wrong, I've got a big downer on all our backs bar Williams and Watson after that shoite show, but these are bloody basics. And NZ do them perfectly. They are the one major difference between us.

On dropping him, I do not feel the Lions defensive plans can/will ever work against NZ. They play around the idea of supporting each other. Whenever someone makes a break, there are minimum 2 players close by. So if someone comes close to the gainline, cutting off his wide pass is not going to stop the half break: he will have 2 options close in. In fact, all it does is take a defender out of the game.

In the second half, JD was exposed time and again for overrunning defence. I didn't pull him up on it because it's not his individual fault, it's the system. But it does not work against teams who support the ball carrier effectively. All that happened was JD, or sometimes Farrell after Sexton came on, stepped out, SBW or ALB hit a close by suppport runner instead of flinging a pass to Ioane, and NZ were through a half gap and past the gainline, leaving JD out of the game, and needing to scramble back. It was infuriating, and one of the main reasons NZ could get so much quick ball: we were constantly 1 man down.

Joseph's drift is one of the best in the business. He can pass and he's aware. I see no reason to pick Davies over him unless you're looking for a big hit tackler for a system that I believe does not work against the best. So that is why I would pick Joseph: I want a 13 who can pass, who is aware of supporting options both with and without the ball, and I want to change defensive alignment.

[Stom]

You are in bad need of a quick, skillful outside back. Or two.

We have them, if not the gameplan to use them...

Sure, none are as quick as Ioane, but not many are.

ll of the Lions chances at scoring came from counter attack. K Ioane is not just fast, he is aware of what is happening.

Ioane is fast as fook. Sure, Daly was caught flat footed by Williams' crazy miss, but to burn him like that shows he has plenty of gas in the tank: Daly is no slouch. I would go so far to say Ioane is the fastest player on either squad.

[Banquo]

The fact the Lions were most dangerous on counter attack/unstructured play would suggest they do have several quick, skillful outside backs. Our phase play and structured attack being crap suggests the game plan and coaching is more of an issue.

Have the Lions executed one strike move off first phase all tour? I can't recall seeing one.

Nope, its a shocker. Every thing you see/read says how important strike moves are...yet...

[Mikey Brown]

I'm looking forward to when they all stand in a straight line behind a scrum, ready to launch their one planned move at a pivotal moment in the series-defining 2nd test, only for the scrum to get blown up for one of the 16 different offences taking place in the front row.

[Sandydragon]

Also we lost the game in the tackle collisions one out and at the breakdown, which is tough couple of points to bring the outside backs to task over

I wouldn't blame the backs too much, they had poor possession for much of the match. My biggest criticism is the lack of composure some displayed, but that was a down side of the entire XV.

I'm stunned that our best player, JD2, is potentially dropped out of the squad. Perhaps one of he most underrated players in modern rugby.

JD was never our best player. He was not bad, I'd give him a pass, but he wasn't our best player. And he's never underrated. It's like when any English fans say Mike Brown is/was underrated. Maybe, but the fact he cannot pass to a high enough standard drags him down. The same is true of Davies. If you cannot consistently pass to a high standard and be aware of your immediate passing and support options, you have no place in the best of the best of B&I.

There was one glaring case of him "supporting" SOB, when SOB was turned over. That never should have happened: he should have been there to hit that ruck. Or, actually he shouldn't, because he should have been there for an offload, but that's a different problem. He did it again with Murray, when we should have scored: he just was nowhere near a supporting position. He should have been on the shoulder ready for a pass, but he was nowhere close.

Now. he was by far not the worst offender, so don't get me wrong, I've got a big downer on all our backs bar Williams and Watson after that shoite show, but these are bloody basics. And NZ do them perfectly. They are the one major difference between us.

On dropping him, I do not feel the Lions defensive plans can/will ever work against NZ. They play around the idea of supporting each other. Whenever someone makes a break, there are minimum 2 players close by. So if someone comes close to the gainline, cutting off his wide pass is not going to stop the half break: he will have 2 options close in. In fact, all it does is take a defender out of the game.

In the second half, JD was exposed time and again for overrunning defence. I didn't pull him up on it because it's not his individual fault, it's the system. But it does not work against teams who support the ball carrier effectively. All that happened was JD, or sometimes Farrell after Sexton came on, stepped out, SBW or ALB hit a close by suppport runner instead of flinging a pass to Ioane, and NZ were through a half gap and past the gainline, leaving JD out of the game, and needing to scramble back. It was infuriating, and one of the main reasons NZ could get so much quick ball: we were constantly 1 man down.

Joseph's drift is one of the best in the business. He can pass and he's aware. I see no reason to pick Davies over him unless you're looking for a big hit tackler for a system that I believe does not work against the best. So that is why I would pick Joseph: I want a 13 who can pass, who is aware of supporting options both with and without the ball, and I want to change defensive alignment.

JDs rushing up is part of the game plan. He isn't doing it because he suddenly thinks its worth doing something different. If JJ played there he would be doing the same.

Im presuming you are overlooking his part in our first try with regards to his inability to pass or be aware of options?

When there was a team pretty full of players who were below par, you want to replace one of our best (I think he was probably our best player and so do a lot of sports commentators) - that is just making a change for the sake of it.

The defensive alignment won't change. Accept that and pick players accordingly.

[Banquo]

I wouldn't blame the backs too much, they had poor possession for much of the match. My biggest criticism is the lack of composure some displayed, but that was a down side of the entire XV.

I'm stunned that our best player, JD2, is potentially dropped out of the squad. Perhaps one of he most underrated players in modern rugby.

JD was never our best player. He was not bad, I'd give him a pass, but he wasn't our best player. And he's never underrated. It's like when any English fans say Mike Brown is/was underrated. Maybe, but the fact he cannot pass to a high enough standard drags him down. The same is true of Davies. If you cannot consistently pass to a high standard and be aware of your immediate passing and support options, you have no place in the best of the best of B&I.

There was one glaring case of him "supporting" SOB, when SOB was turned over. That never should have happened: he should have been there to hit that ruck. Or, actually he shouldn't, because he should have been there for an offload, but that's a different problem. He did it again with Murray, when we should have scored: he just was nowhere near a supporting position. He should have been on the shoulder ready for a pass, but he was nowhere close.

Now. he was by far not the worst offender, so don't get me wrong, I've got a big downer on all our backs bar Williams and Watson after that shoite show, but these are bloody basics. And NZ do them perfectly. They are the one major difference between us.

On dropping him, I do not feel the Lions defensive plans can/will ever work against NZ. They play around the idea of supporting each other. Whenever someone makes a break, there are minimum 2 players close by. So if someone comes close to the gainline, cutting off his wide pass is not going to stop the half break: he will have 2 options close in. In fact, all it does is take a defender out of the game.

In the second half, JD was exposed time and again for overrunning defence. I didn't pull him up on it because it's not his individual fault, it's the system. But it does not work against teams who support the ball carrier effectively. All that happened was JD, or sometimes Farrell after Sexton came on, stepped out, SBW or ALB hit a close by suppport runner instead of flinging a pass to Ioane, and NZ were through a half gap and past the gainline, leaving JD out of the game, and needing to scramble back. It was infuriating, and one of the main reasons NZ could get so much quick ball: we were constantly 1 man down.

Joseph's drift is one of the best in the business. He can pass and he's aware. I see no reason to pick Davies over him unless you're looking for a big hit tackler for a system that I believe does not work against the best. So that is why I would pick Joseph: I want a 13 who can pass, who is aware of supporting options both with and without the ball, and I want to change defensive alignment.

JDs rushing up is part of the game plan. He isn't doing it because he suddenly thinks its worth doing something different. If JJ played there he would be doing the same.

Im presuming you are overlooking his part in our first try with regards to his inability to pass or be aware of options?

When there was a team pretty full of players who were below par, you want to replace one of our best (I think he was probably our best player and so do a lot of sports commentators) - that is just making a change for the sake of it.

The defensive alignment won't change. Accept that and pick players accordingly.

it has been accepted; we are stuck with Faz and won't get JJ.