England openside - who offers most in attack?

[jngf]

Apart from lack of instinctive breakdown skills one of the biggest things that imo has been missing in the period when Robshaw followed latterly by Haskell have been picked as England openside is any sort of attacking and linking play supporting the Backs (and ideally at a pace to keep up with them!).

Now after this massive drought, we've finally got some specialist openside options who all look to be densively sound e.g. Underhill, B & T Curry, W. Evans, L.Ludlum (glad he got another Saints game at last) and either/or Kvesic and S.Simmonds from Chiefs - which if these might other the best attacking and linking threat if picked?

[Digby]

what do you mean by attack?

linking? carrying? best ensuring ball retention? best ensuring fast ball off 1st phase? best on multiphase? does one distinguish at being able to support a wider/narrower game?

[jngf]

what do you mean by attack?

linking? carrying? best ensuring ball retention? best ensuring fast ball off 1st phase? best on multiphase? does one distinguish at being able to support a wider/narrower game?

See first paragraph - linking with and supporting the backs in open play - as opposed to simply carrying the ball into contact in heavy traffic which are the limits of Robshaw and Haskell's attack game imo.

[Digby]

What does supporting the backs mean? One could easily argue Haskell's role in looking to secure the ball is all about supporting the backs.

I'd suggest McCaw wouldn't be to the fore of what a flanker can offer in linking play, but his support play as regards continuity in the team attack was superb, and he added to his linking role as the years went by. But given NZ weren't exactly shabby on attack whilst McCaw was focused more on ball protection and continuity does one need all elements?

And do we look to individuals, or do we look to team? Exeter mayn't have the best individuals, but I'd cite their team approach as being the best in the AP for attack

[Scrumhead]

All valid points. I think what jngf is really asking is 'who is the best link player'?

Where he and I would likely disagree is that I would actually regard Robshaw (I know he is not a 7) as the best of our flankers in this respect. I should make the distinction that I'm not talking about carrying - like Digby, I am talking about a flanker who ensures continuity by making good decisions to protect the ball or clever passes to move the point of the attack away from the ruck.

We'd all love a Hooper or a James Davies/Tipuric type of flanker, but we don't possess one of those right now.

Rob Baxter's said on a number of occasions that he wants to see more of an attacking game from Kvesic, but the bigger issue there isn't so much a lack of ability, it's eradicating his tendency to drift in and out of games rather than being consistently influential. Kvesic does more eye catching things once or twice a game, but Robshaw or Haskell make consistently good contributions. Until he can do that, he's probably still a bystander.

Sam Simmonds or Sam Underhill could yet evolve in to that role bu until they're doing it regularly, I don't think they could be regarded as better than the incumbents.

[Mikey Brown]

Jngf, what did you think of Tom Curry's performance in the first test vs Argentina, in this regard? There was some subtle stuff but I thought his ability to move the ball around cleverly was a massive contributing factor to the attack. But he wasn't exactly running a lot, or even linking with the backs like a Watson/Tipuric.

In terms of actual running talent, Simmonds looks a handful.

[Digby]

Jngf, what did you think of Tom Curry's performance in the first test vs Argentina, in this regard? There was some subtle stuff but I thought his ability to move the ball around cleverly was a massive contributing factor to the attack. But he wasn't exactly running a lot, or even linking with the backs like a Watson/Tipuric.

In terms of actual running talent, Simmonds looks a handful.

Curry also got knocked off the ball too much to interest Jones, which has it seems been the main complaint against Kvesic too

[jngf]

Jngf, what did you think of Tom Curry's performance in the first test vs Argentina, in this regard? There was some subtle stuff but I thought his ability to move the ball around cleverly was a massive contributing factor to the attack. But he wasn't exactly running a lot, or even linking with the backs like a Watson/Tipuric.

In terms of actual running talent, Simmonds looks a handful.

I thought T. Curry's performance was refreshing and he was working very hard with those supporting passes - I will be interested to see what his brother does too when he gets the opportunity at test level.

[Puja]

Jngf, what did you think of Tom Curry's performance in the first test vs Argentina, in this regard? There was some subtle stuff but I thought his ability to move the ball around cleverly was a massive contributing factor to the attack. But he wasn't exactly running a lot, or even linking with the backs like a Watson/Tipuric.

In terms of actual running talent, Simmonds looks a handful.

Curry also got knocked off the ball too much to interest Jones, which has it seems been the main complaint against Kvesic too

He was 17 at the time! He'll grow as he becomes an adult.

Puja

[Digby]

Jngf, what did you think of Tom Curry's performance in the first test vs Argentina, in this regard? There was some subtle stuff but I thought his ability to move the ball around cleverly was a massive contributing factor to the attack. But he wasn't exactly running a lot, or even linking with the backs like a Watson/Tipuric.

In terms of actual running talent, Simmonds looks a handful.

Curry also got knocked off the ball too much to interest Jones, which has it seems been the main complaint against Kvesic too

He was 17 at the time! He'll grow as he becomes an adult.

Puja

Have I lost a year, or was he perhaps 18? And it looks likely that both Curry boys will develop, just saying right now Eddie isn't interested in players who will get so knocked back. I'm not even sure Eddie needs quite that focus as I happen to think Kvesic would offer something right now, but it's just not what Eddie is after.

[Timbo]

Ben Curry got smashed a few times at the weekend against Wasps. Wasn't quite as strong in the tackle as you'd want your international calibre 7 to be. Little way off still I reckon.

[Puja]

Curry also got knocked off the ball too much to interest Jones, which has it seems been the main complaint against Kvesic too

He was 17 at the time! He'll grow as he becomes an adult.

Puja

Have I lost a year, or was he perhaps 18? And it looks likely that both Curry boys will develop, just saying right now Eddie isn't interested in players who will get so knocked back. I'm not even sure Eddie needs quite that focus as I happen to think Kvesic would offer something right now, but it's just not what Eddie is after.

Their birthdays were between the first and second tests. He would've been just 17.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Digby's right. The Curry twins turned 19 over the summer.

That Eddie is looking for something different is speculative until he picks the EPS.

[Oakboy]

As usual in selection, there are two top factors: 1. A player has to be starring for his club (Kvesic has to get selected in the starting XV, for example), 2. A player has to be a demonstrable improvement over the current shirt-holder. IMO, none of the pretenders are near fulfilling both requirements, never mind demonstrating a particular style of play that might lead Eddie to change his back-row set-up.

To get to jngf's point how will anybody, including Eddie, know who fits the bill as an attacking player? Unless Underhill, or whoever, gets to be top of the pile how will they get sufficient international game time between now and the RWC?

It may not resonate pleasingly in some posters minds, but I think Itoje is still more likely to play in the back-row than the youngsters. I suppose the only chance of changing that is if Eddie sticks to his no-Lions selection policy for the AIs. If players like Itoje are ever-present for their clubs, how can he justify it?

[Puja]

Digby's right. The Curry twins turned 19 over the summer.

That Eddie is looking for something different is speculative until he picks the EPS.

You and Digby are quite right; I stand corrected.

There is a space to compete for, depending on how Haskell comes back from his injury. He's hardly rivetted into the shirt right now.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Exactly. I'm not sure when Underhill is due to be fit, but Ben Curry does have a chance to leapfrog his brother if he keeps starting for Sale.

Simmonds is an interesting one. I've always maintained my stance that he should be a 7 rather than an 8 and if he keeps showing up well for Exeter, Eddie may decide he's worth a punt.

I wonder if a 6/7 (left and right) combo of Robshaw and Wilson is a possibility? I'm not sure it would be the most popular, but it could be pretty good IMO.

[Mikey Brown]

Why would it being left and right change that it's two 6s. I've never really understood some people's fascination with the left right thing. If it's purely about getting away quickly from scrums then there is clearly one man that is going to be superior.

[Puja]

Exactly. I'm not sure when Underhill is due to be fit, but Ben Curry does have a chance to leapfrog his brother if he keeps starting for Sale.

Simmonds is an interesting one. I've always maintained my stance that he should be a 7 rather than an 8 and if he keeps showing up well for Exeter, Eddie may decide he's worth a punt.

I wonder if a 6/7 (left and right) combo of Robshaw and Wilson is a possibility? I'm not sure it would be the most popular, but it could be pretty good IMO.

I'd take Robshaw/Wilson - I think that could be pretty solid. I'd take the f*ck out of it if the other option was Robshaw/Lawtoje. If we must waste Itoje on the flank, then he at least needs a proper 7 beside him to avoid having the piss taken by top level back rows.

Puja

[Raggs]

I may be wrong but I don't think Digby was talking about carrying when referring to Haskell. Probably the best example would have been in the Lions midweek game when the lions winger made a break, Haskell covered 60m to support it, and cleared out a well positioned openside flanker, enabling the ball to be used quickly and the try scored. Haskell didn't touch the ball once, but as the openside, he enabled the attack to continue effectively.

Contrast perhaps with Curry failing to clear out the Argentinian scrum half off our player, and us conceding the penalty.

Eddie currently seems to favour the big hitting tackler and ruck clearer. With a relatively small midfield and backline in general, a focus on ruck work is perhaps not a bad idea when it comes to the openside.

[Scrumhead]

I may be wrong but I don't think Digby was talking about carrying when referring to Haskell. Probably the best example would have been in the Lions midweek game when the lions winger made a break, Haskell covered 60m to support it, and cleared out a well positioned openside flanker, enabling the ball to be used quickly and the try scored. Haskell didn't touch the ball once, but as the openside, he enabled the attack to continue effectively.

Contrast perhaps with Curry failing to clear out the Argentinian scrum half off our player, and us conceding the penalty.

Eddie currently seems to favour the big hitting tackler and ruck clearer. With a relatively small midfield and backline in general, a focus on ruck work is perhaps not a bad idea when it comes to the openside.

I don't disagree with this. I'm the absence of a groundhog/linking player who is currently at the level they need to be (the Currys and Underhill aren't now, but will get there IMO) and a midfield that isn't any good over the ball, the Haskell role is important.

Why would it being left and right change that it's two 6s. I've never really understood some people's fascination with the left right thing. If it's purely about getting away quickly from scrums then there is clearly one man that is going to be superior.

I hear you on this ... but personally, I think two good 6.5s could be superior to Robshaw plus a 7 that isn't currently up to the task. As Puja said, I'd much prefer that to Itoje or Lawes gamely doing an impression of a flanker (a 5.5 if you will).

If Haskell is fit and in form, I'd seriously consider him as the best option. However, I also think we need to develop a successor and I'd give game time in the AIs to Underhill and the Currys if they're fit and showing enough at AP level to warrant being selected.

[Mikey Brown]

I think Underhill is a rather different prospect to the Curry boys though, no? He looks like he can do all the physical stuff that the Hask can. There was a good article on his performance in Argentina from that rugby nerd bloke that loves infographics. He looks less exciting than the Currys on the face of it, but if we're not wanting to change the open-side role too much I imagine he's in with a better shot.

I really hope Eddie takes the chance to look at some other options while we still can. Haskypoo does get through some work but his form has been largely dreadful for a while.

[Tom Moore]

Exactly. I'm not sure when Underhill is due to be fit, but Ben Curry does have a chance to leapfrog his brother if he keeps starting for Sale.

Simmonds is an interesting one. I've always maintained my stance that he should be a 7 rather than an 8 and if he keeps showing up well for Exeter, Eddie may decide he's worth a punt.

I wonder if a 6/7 (left and right) combo of Robshaw and Wilson is a possibility? I'm not sure it would be the most popular, but it could be pretty good IMO.

I'd take Robshaw/Wilson - I think that could be pretty solid. I'd take the f*ck out of it if the other option was Robshaw/Lawtoje. If we must waste Itoje on the flank, then he at least needs a proper 7 beside him to avoid having the piss taken by top level back rows.

Puja

Locks who play like flankers are too valuable to waste as flankers.

[Puja]

I'd take Robshaw/Wilson - I think that could be pretty solid. I'd take the f*ck out of it if the other option was Robshaw/Lawtoje. If we must waste Itoje on the flank, then he at least needs a proper 7 beside him to avoid having the piss taken by top level back rows.

Puja

Locks who play like flankers are too valuable to waste as flankers.

Post of the day right there.

I'm basically pinning my hopes on Underhill right now. I just want anything but Lawtoje.

Puja

[kk67]

Locks who play like flankers are too valuable to waste as flankers.

Quality. Mind you, England have such a glut of 2nd row it's ridiculous. Someone have a word with Ed Slater and see how he feels about changing his number.

has Clifford ever played 7..?.

[Scrumhead]

Clifford has played 7 for England. Most recently against Wales in the last 6 Nations. He was anonymous. I don't think Eddie's going to be going in that particular direction again ...