Italy v England, Saturday 3 Feb 2024, 2.15pm (ITV)

[Banquo]

I don't understand the world in which we don't see that Dombrandt coming into that 8 shirt makes this England a better team...

We need more athletic carrying options. Full stop.

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

it IS like Nick Easter again...from both angles

[Mellsblue]

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

it IS like Nick Easter again...from both angles

A) lol
B) you’re not allowed to fat shame these days.

[Banquo]

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

it IS like Nick Easter again...from both angles

A) lol
B) you’re not allowed to fat shame these days.

three angles then

[Beasties]

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.

Dombrandt = Matt le Tissier for me.

Apols for bringing that analogy in but it is a similar quandary.

[Beasties]

LOL at Eddie sitting in the stand btw.

[Oakboy]

LOL at Eddie sitting in the stand btw.

A guest, according to the commentary!!!!

[FKAS]

I don’t see that getting much support on here. I’m beyond biased but still feel he has a lot to offer. Playing alongside a 6 who can do some of the tough, tight-carrying might help. Maybe he’ll make it on to the bench next week.

I don’t quite know what Borthwick is thinking with CCS though, if he’s in the conversation as a number 8 or not.

Is Barbeary available again? Maybe judging on appearances but him and Roots together would seem awful stodgy?

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.

Agreed. Dombrant has had chances and has squandered them. He needs to be putting himself about this week in training and if he gets a chance Vs Wales actually use his size to make some hits on both sides of the ball. For a big bloke he isn't very physical.

[fivepointer]

Why, I don't know...

It's like Nick Easter again, but worse. Who cares that all the numbers support him, let's judge him on some kind of barrier that's higher than other players.

He does almost exactly what this England team is crying out for: athletic carrying.

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.

Agreed. Dombrant has had chances and has squandered them. He needs to be putting himself about this week in training and if he gets a chance Vs Wales actually use his size to make some hits on both sides of the ball. For a big bloke he isn't very physical.

That isnt going to change. He isnt a Wiese or a Billy V at his peak. His play is more akin to someone like Kieran Read. Harnessing him with players who have complementary skills in the back row might see him deliver his best. I accept he's under performed but i'm still curious to see what he can do.

[Banquo]

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.

Agreed. Dombrant has had chances and has squandered them. He needs to be putting himself about this week in training and if he gets a chance Vs Wales actually use his size to make some hits on both sides of the ball. For a big bloke he isn't very physical.

His play is more akin to someone like Kieran Read...

Choked on my toast there, I get your drift, but one is/was a worldie. The other is....not.

[FKAS]

I don't think there is any argument about what Dombrandt does at club level. If he could reproduce it at international level he would add a lot. The fact is that he was given a whole 6N to prove his worth. He failed. Now, having not made the RWC squad, he is back in the training camp, where, presumably, he failed to convince SB to pick him ahead of Earl. After Earl's performance at 8 against Italy, I'd assume that Dombrandt is in serious contention for next weekend IF his attitude/performance in training merits it.

However, if Dombrandt does not make the XV against Wales might that indicate that his international future is dead? Barbeary and T Willis must threaten it at some point. Fisilau and C-S may claim a case too.

It's not a question of like or dislike with Dombrandt. His best may be the best but doubts exist about his overall 80 minute contribution at international level based on what he has done in an England shirt so far. Now, has he ripped up trees in training? He has only himself to blame if he has not.

Agreed. Dombrant has had chances and has squandered them. He needs to be putting himself about this week in training and if he gets a chance Vs Wales actually use his size to make some hits on both sides of the ball. For a big bloke he isn't very physical.

That isnt going to change. He isnt a Wiese or a Billy V at his peak. His play is more akin to someone like Kieran Read. Harnessing him with players who have complementary skills in the back row might see him deliver his best. I accept he's under performed but i'm still curious to see what he can do.

I think it could change, particularly in defence. Dombrant is nearly 19 stone if he ups his aggression levels and works on his tackling technique he could quite easily smash some opponents in defence. Similar in attack, just needs to flick the angry switch he's got the size, speed and skills (yeah he's not Read quality, but who is) he just needs to tweak his game.

[Mellsblue]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

[Oakboy]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement . . .

That is unlikely with SB, I'd suggest. I could see it being a development of picking Roots at 6 to do a lot of the heavy stuff IF Curry was fit or J Willis was available for the 7 shirt. With Underhill or Earl at 7, I don't think Dombrandt fits.

[p/d]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

Exactly. Leave him out of the WC squad and tell him to work on his Paul Daniel’s routine. Then he does the impossible and makes Debbie likeable yet is sent to sit in the stand.

Load of bollox to be honest with you.

[Banquo]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

Exactly. Leave him out of the WC squad and tell him to work on his Paul Daniel’s routine. Then he does the impossible and makes Debbie likeable yet is sent to sit in the stand.

Load of bollox to be honest with you.

the le tissier or hoddle argument works well here. Is he good enough to build a back row around?

I mean, we've spent 11 years working around Owen Farrell so at least a year of David Blane is on the er....cards

[Oakboy]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

Exactly. Leave him out of the WC squad and tell him to work on his Paul Daniel’s routine. Then he does the impossible and makes Debbie likeable yet is sent to sit in the stand.

Load of bollox to be honest with you.

Presumably, Dombrandt is confused - unless work-ons have been agreed.

[Oakboy]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

Exactly. Leave him out of the WC squad and tell him to work on his Paul Daniel’s routine. Then he does the impossible and makes Debbie likeable yet is sent to sit in the stand.

Load of bollox to be honest with you.

the le tissier or hoddle argument works well here. Is he good enough to build a back row around?

I mean, we've spent 11 years working around Owen Farrell so at least a year of David Blane is on the er....cards

Maybe, SB is embarrassed after his decision to select fat Billy as the only 8 for the RWC.

[Mikey Brown]

The Read comparison seems quite apt, and clearly not meant to be a measure of proven quality or impact at the top level. Unfortunately that leaves us with Roots being our Collins/Kaino.

It's the pondering with Dombrandt that worries me though. He actually had quite a few good individual moments but he just looked so unsure of himself in the 6 nations last year. His timing just seemed to be way off.

Earl is a funny one. I'm curious if Borthwick actually views him as an 8 long term or is waiting for someone specific to grow in to the role. I understand Cunningham-South was primarily an 8, and would probably be at Quins too if Dombrandt weren't there, but the way the backrow was set up when he came on would suggest Boerthwick doesn't think so.

[Banquo]

The Read comparison seems quite apt, and clearly not meant to be a measure of proven quality or impact at the top level. It's the pondering that worries me though. He actually had quite a few good individual moments but he just looked so unsure of himself in the 6 nations last year.

Earl is a funny one. I'm curious if Borthwick actually views him as an 8 long term or is waiting for someone specific to grow in to the role. I understand Cunningham-South was primarily an 8, and would probably be at Quins too if Dombrandt weren't there, but the way the backrow was set up when he came on would suggest Boerthwick doesn't think so.

I don't actually think he is that much like Kieran Read tbh. Read was equally happy tight or wide, was a lean athlete, and was also great in the lineout, as well as being great generally. Easter is a pretty good fit.

[p/d]

Or you just accept he’s the player he is and pick him in a team, with a game plan, to complement or you don’t pick him.

Exactly. Leave him out of the WC squad and tell him to work on his Paul Daniel’s routine. Then he does the impossible and makes Debbie likeable yet is sent to sit in the stand.

Load of bollox to be honest with you.

the le tissier or hoddle argument works well here. Is he good enough to build a back row around?

I mean, we've spent 11 years working around Owen Farrell so at least a year of David Blane is on the er....cards

I will hold my hands up and acknowledge I questioned his impact on test rugby, and I still do. But I have to assume SB has lined him up to start the bigger games, having given Earl another chance to prove his dream of being the best rugby player in the world is just that.

[p/d]

The Read comparison seems quite apt, and clearly not meant to be a measure of proven quality or impact at the top level. It's the pondering that worries me though. He actually had quite a few good individual moments but he just looked so unsure of himself in the 6 nations last year.

Earl is a funny one. I'm curious if Borthwick actually views him as an 8 long term or is waiting for someone specific to grow in to the role. I understand Cunningham-South was primarily an 8, and would probably be at Quins too if Dombrandt weren't there, but the way the backrow was set up when he came on would suggest Boerthwick doesn't think so.

I don't actually think he is that much like Kieran Read tbh. Read was equally happy tight or wide, was a lean athlete, and was also great in the lineout, as well as being great generally. Easter is a pretty good fit.

a James Forrester

[Which Tyler]

I couldnt see how he got picked given his obvious lack of match fitness. He played like a man who hadnt played for months. A fitter, match sharp player would surely have offered more?

I've seen Underhill come back from injury lay-offs more times than I'm happy about. I don't think I've ever seen him look as rusty as he was this weekend.
I do wonder if he was actually fit to play, or if it was a week (or more) too soon.



As for Wales, I never like too many changes, especially without the 6N rest weekends...
On the other hand, I'm not sure that Itoje and Chessum suit each other as a pair, Ford was scraping to be allowed an "okay", and from my memory (the minute-by-minute will be illuminating) but Daly was overall a negative impact on the match, whilst Dingwall looked a bit over-awed to me.

Pack deserves another chance as a unit, hopefully Underhill is fit, just rusty, and Itoje/Chessum can only get better by playing together (would be different if Martin were fit).
Dingwall was there on merit, and absolutely deserves another shot (I'd say he should be in for the whole 6N, without an absolute travesty on the pitch).
I'll stick with FSmith and IFW coming in for Ford and Daly - probably just swapping between starting and benching, though I'm tempted to drop Daly further and bring Furbank in.
Of course, as a matter of bias, and pre-tournie favouritism, I'd like to see Ojomoh on the bench, but not at the expense of a back-3 player, and I wouldn't want to risk a part-timer at FH (Furbank, Slade) if it's all going horribly wrong.

[Stom]

Agreed. Dombrant has had chances and has squandered them. He needs to be putting himself about this week in training and if he gets a chance Vs Wales actually use his size to make some hits on both sides of the ball. For a big bloke he isn't very physical.

That isnt going to change. He isnt a Wiese or a Billy V at his peak. His play is more akin to someone like Kieran Read. Harnessing him with players who have complementary skills in the back row might see him deliver his best. I accept he's under performed but i'm still curious to see what he can do.

I think it could change, particularly in defence. Dombrant is nearly 19 stone if he ups his aggression levels and works on his tackling technique he could quite easily smash some opponents in defence. Similar in attack, just needs to flick the angry switch he's got the size, speed and skills (yeah he's not Read quality, but who is) he just needs to tweak his game.

He does smash opponents, though...He makes hard tackles, but because of his role in the Quins team, it's not his job. In fact, SMASHING PEOPLE in defense doesn't seem to be a role requirement for nearly all 8s around...because they need to be available to do the hard work in attack.

And Dombrandt does that. Consistently.

This was a quote from fantasy rugby. I'm finding it really hard to find stats these days, so this is the best I could come up with:

Arguably the league’s best player over the first four rounds, Dombrandt now tops three of the most sought after metrics; carries, metres made post contact and carries over the gainline, and is the fantasy top-scorer with 68 points. The Quins skipper also sits joint-second for turnovers won, behind his ever-poaching teammate Will Evans. The No.8 is looking like a regular in my back row especially with his eyes firmly on a return to the England setup - he also gets the nod as my captain.

We're not talking about him fighting a younger BillyV for the 8 slot. He's fighting Ben Earl, who is hardly going to make more yards tight in than Dombrandt...

And Dombrandt makes more turnovers than Earl week in week out.

As for the 6N, Dombrandt wasn't "that" bad. It was an awful team performance throughout.

I agree that Smelly Bunghole isn't likely to pick Dombrandt, seemingly not liking him, but this is just one more reason I cannot get behind this England team.

I don't want rugby by numbers.

I don't want England to be manned by as many Kiwi or Saffa imports as we can find as England don't produce enough "dominant tackle machines". Play by what we have, ffs. Introduce a bit of skill to the stodge. Earl is not an international 8. Pick him at 7 or go full Exeter and pick CCS at 7 and be done with it.

I just feel like the backrow is the biggest symptom of the malaise in this England team, and until the coaching team stop messing about with systems that obviously do not work, we're not going to see an improvement.

This England team needs more dynamism. Dombrandt is dynamic. Underhill is not dynamic. Or he hasn't been for several years. Leave him be. Let him get fit. Pick Earl at 7 and Dombrandt at 8. And pick a Smith at 10.

[FKAS]

You look at the backrows for Ireland and France, two of the most dynamic attacks in world rugby, their backrows are more physical and their number 8s aren't pulling out of defensive big hits to save their energy for attack.

Dombrant did lead the stats for the first few weeks of the season, when the internationals weren't here. For instance Weise topped the carrying chart for every week for about two months after his return.

Dombrant could be a very good 8 at international level but he's not been close so far. He should be looking at Aldritt, an 8 as technically gifted as Dombrant but who's work rate and physicality are a step up.

[Stom]

Is Aldritt’s work rate up, or is France just a functioning team?

[Mr Mwenda]

I'd say Aldritt's workrate is partly why the team functions.

Round and round we go I guess.

I guess the question is what would it take to change people's minds either way? I personally wouldn't mind Dombrandt getting another crack but his performances for England mean I am not bothered at his omission.