RugbyRebels

I may be, and probably am, way off. But when I was watching the test yesterday I thought Kruis struggled with the speed of the game and I remembered having similar concerns last year in the Aus series.

Am I right of is my Launch man-sized twisting memory.

Scrumhead wrote:Absolutely Timbo.

IMO Kruis is excellent at the basics and a genuine lineout strategist. That's a top class combination.

Retallick is just a freak. If I were picking the top 5 locks in world rugby, I'd have him as number 1 and then daylight to the next four (probably Itoje, Launchbury, Whitelock and Kruis).

Think you are missing Nakarawa from that list. Would be my number 2 but not by far

Cameo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Absolutely Timbo.

IMO Kruis is excellent at the basics and a genuine lineout strategist. That's a top class combination.

Retallick is just a freak. If I were picking the top 5 locks in world rugby, I'd have him as number 1 and then daylight to the next four (probably Itoje, Launchbury, Whitelock and Kruis).

Think you are missing Nakarawa from that list. Would be my number 2 but not by far

Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Cameo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Absolutely Timbo.

IMO Kruis is excellent at the basics and a genuine lineout strategist. That's a top class combination.

Retallick is just a freak. If I were picking the top 5 locks in world rugby, I'd have him as number 1 and then daylight to the next four (probably Itoje, Launchbury, Whitelock and Kruis).

Think you are missing Nakarawa from that list. Would be my number 2 but not by far

Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

This. He can be amazing but mainly in the loose and as much as he's the sort of player I'd love to see at Quins, I like my test locks to be mean bastards who will dominate both the set piece and do the dirty work.

As well as the ones I rated as my top five, I'd say Etzebeth, Alun Wyn Jones, Lawes and Johnny Gray would outrank Nakarawa IMO.

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:

Cameo wrote:
Think you are missing Nakarawa from that list. Would be my number 2 but not by far

Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

This. He can be amazing but mainly in the loose and as much as he's the sort of player I'd love to see at Quins, I like my test locks to be mean bastards who will dominate both the set piece and do the dirty work.

As well as the ones I rated as my top five, I'd say Etzebeth, Alun Wyn Jones, Lawes and Johnny Gray would outrank Nakarawa IMO.

2017 AWJ has gone waaay over the hill...

Stom wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:
Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

This. He can be amazing but mainly in the loose and as much as he's the sort of player I'd love to see at Quins, I like my test locks to be mean bastards who will dominate both the set piece and do the dirty work.

As well as the ones I rated as my top five, I'd say Etzebeth, Alun Wyn Jones, Lawes and Johnny Gray would outrank Nakarawa IMO.

2017 AWJ has gone waaay over the hill...

I commented to that effect during the 6N.

Puja wrote:

Cameo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Absolutely Timbo.

IMO Kruis is excellent at the basics and a genuine lineout strategist. That's a top class combination.

Retallick is just a freak. If I were picking the top 5 locks in world rugby, I'd have him as number 1 and then daylight to the next four (probably Itoje, Launchbury, Whitelock and Kruis).

Think you are missing Nakarawa from that list. Would be my number 2 but not by far

Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

Yes really. I think the most (well not quite) impressive thing about him is that he does those eyecatching things while still doing a lot of grunt work. Maybe not the best lineout forward but I dont think he has a real weakness

Timbo wrote:I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

I get that feeling when people start comparing Hartley to unproven kids who cant even throw, because they've seen them make a linebreak or two... when he has how many caps, and more recently captained England on such an amazing run, from such a pivotal position. I guess its asking a lot for commenters on the internet to appreciate the importance of a tight 5 hooker

Stom wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote:
Really? He's eyecatching and does things that no others can, but I wouldn't put him up with the very best on the basis of his overall game.

Puja

This. He can be amazing but mainly in the loose and as much as he's the sort of player I'd love to see at Quins, I like my test locks to be mean bastards who will dominate both the set piece and do the dirty work.

As well as the ones I rated as my top five, I'd say Etzebeth, Alun Wyn Jones, Lawes and Johnny Gray would outrank Nakarawa IMO.

2017 AWJ has gone waaay over the hill...

Has been for a couple of years... still a brilliant player, especially when its wet and tight, on a shit pitch... but that's not the game we're playing these days

Same as the backs, in order, with italics outsiders.

Mako, Marler, Genge, Mullan
George, Hartley, LCD, Taylor
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch, Ewels
Robshaw, Wilson, Clifford, Wood
Underhill, Haskell, TCurry, BCurry, Harrison
Billy, Hughes

Hard to call here. 18 players. We need 16-17 as I see it, no? So Genge misses out? And some of those calls are tough.

Haskell can drop out completely, with Clifford coming in, or BCurry maybe... The rest is kind of set. We need another hooker. LCD is in the driving seat, imo.

So that gives us:

Mako, Marler
George, Hartley, LCD
Cole, Sinckler
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry
Billy, Hughes

That looks kind of decent, you could build a pretty good pack out of that.

iLovett wrote:

Timbo wrote:I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

I get that feeling when people start comparing Hartley to unproven kids who cant even throw, because they've seen them make a linebreak or two... when he has how many caps, and more recently captained England on such an amazing run, from such a pivotal position. I guess its asking a lot for commenters on the internet to appreciate the importance of a tight 5 hooker

boom, that told em.

iLovett wrote:

Timbo wrote:I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

I get that feeling when people start comparing Hartley to unproven kids who cant even throw, because they've seen them make a linebreak or two... when he has how many caps, and more recently captained England on such an amazing run, from such a pivotal position. I guess its asking a lot for commenters on the internet to appreciate the importance of a tight 5 hooker

Hartley has his qualities, but it's not enough to be purely a 'tight 5 hooker' in the modern game.

I might have been more inclined to support your argument if we were talking solely about Cowan-Dickie, but I think you'll find the general theme is leaning towards Jamie George who is excellent at the basics (arguably more so than Hartley) and significantly better in the loose. He's also won a lot more domestically and in Europe in a relatively short time than Hartley has in his entire career and is good enough to be the starting hooker for the Lions, so it's hardly like we're championing a rookie with a 'linebreak or two' to his name.

Banquo wrote:

iLovett wrote:

Timbo wrote:I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

I get that feeling when people start comparing Hartley to unproven kids who cant even throw, because they've seen them make a linebreak or two... when he has how many caps, and more recently captained England on such an amazing run, from such a pivotal position. I guess its asking a lot for commenters on the internet to appreciate the importance of a tight 5 hooker

boom, that told em.

Didn't it just. He's still shit mind.

Stom wrote:Same as the backs, in order, with italics outsiders.

Mako, Marler, Genge, Mullan
George, Hartley, LCD, Taylor
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch, Ewels
Robshaw, Wilson, Clifford, Wood
Underhill, Haskell, TCurry, BCurry, Harrison
Billy, Hughes

Hard to call here. 18 players. We need 16-17 as I see it, no? So Genge misses out? And some of those calls are tough.

Haskell can drop out completely, with Clifford coming in, or BCurry maybe... The rest is kind of set. We need another hooker. LCD is in the driving seat, imo.

So that gives us:

Mako, Marler
George, Hartley, LCD
Cole, Sinckler
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry
Billy, Hughes

That looks kind of decent, you could build a pretty good pack out of that.

That pack looks very good and referring back to my post in the backs thread I feel thats a unit that can at least compete with NZ.

Our biggest issue there is probably the relative quality of experienced players with handling and breakdown skill in the back row. Therefore I think Underhill will back up Robshaw and either both Currys or potentially even Clifford / Mercer will come in on the flank.


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6.5 wrote:

Stom wrote:Same as the backs, in order, with italics outsiders.

Mako, Marler, Genge, Mullan
George, Hartley, LCD, Taylor
Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Collier
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch, Ewels
Robshaw, Wilson, Clifford, Wood
Underhill, Haskell, TCurry, BCurry, Harrison
Billy, Hughes

Hard to call here. 18 players. We need 16-17 as I see it, no? So Genge misses out? And some of those calls are tough.

Haskell can drop out completely, with Clifford coming in, or BCurry maybe... The rest is kind of set. We need another hooker. LCD is in the driving seat, imo.

So that gives us:

Mako, Marler
George, Hartley, LCD
Cole, Sinckler
Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Launch
Robshaw, Wilson
Underhill, TCurry
Billy, Hughes

That looks kind of decent, you could build a pretty good pack out of that.

That pack looks very good and referring back to my post in the backs thread I feel thats a unit that can at least compete with NZ.

Our biggest issue there is probably the relative quality of experienced players with handling and breakdown skill in the back row. Therefore I think Underhill will back up Robshaw and either both Currys or potentially even Clifford / Mercer will come in on the flank.


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Underhill doesn't fit Robshaw's role, he fits Haskell's role (with added breakdown capabilities). He fits what Eddie wants at 7, as far as I can see.

I think (hope) Wilson has got the backup 6 shirt. He looked very good, imo.

One Curry will miss out, though, it seems. Unless we can find a way for 7 backrows. As none of them cover lock, I don't see that as likely.

Underhill doesn't fit Robshaw's role?! He's got a ridiculous workrate, tackles everything, carries bad ball, looks for turnovers as first man in - literally that is Robshaw's play defined.

Puja

Although - that would be an equally apt description of Wilson too, who I think is a 6.

I'd also say Wilson's probably the best carrier out of Robshaw, Underhill and the Currys which is useful.

7 will be in a state of flux for a while, until one of Underhill, the Currys or maybe an outside bet like Kvesic (less likely) makes the shirt their own but I think Wilson has provided a good solution to what was a problem at 6.

I'd argue that he's an ideal reserve for Robshaw as well as a very useful bench option covering both flanks and potentially 8 (in an emergency).

Wilson's play on tour was a highlight for me. Its so pleasing to see an under rated player from an unfashionable club step up and prove his worth. An EPS spot should be a given, but i wonder if Eddie will stick with Haskell and Wood, or possibly Sam Jones.

I reckon Wilson's in - deservedly so. Eddie's said a couple of times that he was impressed with him on and off the pitch.

Puja wrote:Underhill doesn't fit Robshaw's role?! He's got a ridiculous workrate, tackles everything, carries bad ball, looks for turnovers as first man in - literally that is Robshaw's play defined.

Puja

Well, perhaps. But he was playing the role of Eddie's 7 to a t. With added looking for turnovers. I think those two could be a good combination, with Billy between them, Itoje and Launch (should Itoje learn to call the l/o) ahead, and Mako, George, Sinckler up top. Now that is a pack to strike fear.

I have to say, compared to under Burt, our team is really starting to take shape. And while Eddie deserves a lot of credit for that, I think one of this board's hate figures deserves more.

Our progression from u20s to seniors since Rob Andrew turned it all around has been superb. 80%+ of the squad have come through the u20s, with a few gems who didn't make it but have stepped up later in life - Williams, Genge, Underhill, Wilson. We don't have many left from before the u20 world cups. Hartley, Care, Brown, Robshaw, Haskell. And that's it, no? Mullan?

Mullan came through the U20s same year as Launchbury, IIRC.

Puja

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Underhill doesn't fit Robshaw's role?! He's got a ridiculous workrate, tackles everything, carries bad ball, looks for turnovers as first man in - literally that is Robshaw's play defined.

Puja

Well, perhaps. But he was playing the role of Eddie's 7 to a t. With added looking for turnovers. I think those two could be a good combination, with Billy between them, Itoje and Launch (should Itoje learn to call the l/o) ahead, and Mako, George, Sinckler up top. Now that is a pack to strike fear.

I have to say, compared to under Burt, our team is really starting to take shape. And while Eddie deserves a lot of credit for that, I think one of this board's hate figures deserves more.

Our progression from u20s to seniors since Rob Andrew turned it all around has been superb. 80%+ of the squad have come through the u20s, with a few gems who didn't make it but have stepped up later in life - Williams, Genge, Underhill, Wilson. We don't have many left from before the u20 world cups. Hartley, Care, Brown, Robshaw, Haskell. And that's it, no? Mullan?

I've always given credit to Andrew. Its others who don't.....and there is a lot of truth in that Fletcher deserves more of a mention than he seems to get.

Puja wrote:Mullan came through the U20s same year as Launchbury, IIRC.

Puja

Launchbury is 4 years younger.............

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:Mullan came through the U20s same year as Launchbury, IIRC.

Puja

Launchbury is 4 years younger.............

In which case, I clearly don't remember correctly.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:Although - that would be an equally apt description of Wilson too, who I think is a 6.

I'd also say Wilson's probably the best carrier out of Robshaw, Underhill and the Currys which is useful.

7 will be in a state of flux for a while, until one of Underhill, the Currys or maybe an outside bet like Kvesic (less likely) makes the shirt their own but I think Wilson has provided a good solution to what was a problem at 6.

I'd argue that he's an ideal reserve for Robshaw as well as a very useful bench option covering both flanks and potentially 8 (in an emergency).

I can certainly see the merit of Wilson after his showing in Arg and I can also still see the value in Haskell. I guess it depends how the Currys progress and the view on how much rugby they should be playing - in a year or two i think they could be a level above everyone else.

I wouldn't necessarily define Eddies views of a 6 and 7 based on Robshaw and Hask - I think he has been making the best of what he has got, particularly in Hasks case.


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