Eddie Jones' Phase 2 (Forwards)

[Scrumhead]

The conclusion of the summer tour effectively marks the mid way point in England's journey to Japan 2019 under Eddie.

At the beginning of his reign he essentially broke down the progression in to three sections; the first two years, a further 18 months and then the final 6 months.

He's spoken about having 61 players to fit in to an EPS of 45 and I wonder whether phase 2 of his plan will see him make some pretty ruthless decisions on certain players?

Assuming everyone is fit, here's my take ...

Props:

Marler, Mako, Cole and Sinckler effectively pick themselves, but who starts and who finish is definitely up for debate/potential change. For example, if Sinckler keeps improving his scrummaging, he offers so much more in the loose that I think there's a genuine chance he can leapfrog Cole. If that happens, does Cole make the bench? As useful as it is to have a very experienced tighthead of Cole's calibre, he's not an impact player, so does it open the door for someone like Williams or Collier to take the 'finisher' spot in his place?

Another good season from Genge should see him nail-down a berth as the third choice loosehead with Mullan slipping down to fourth. On the other side of the scrum, I think Williams and Collier have stolen a march on him Hill for the third choice tighthead spot unless he can make a spectacular return to form.

Conclusion: No changes for the AIs. Possible changes in the pecking order between now and 2019.

Hooker:

The obvious question is when does Eddie call time on Hartley? IMO, Hartley was one of the poorest performers in Argentina and contributed very little. He was lucky that Cowan-Dickie and Taylor were unavailable as I think both would have done a similar job to George in showing him up from 50 minutes onward.

I would assume that George will be rested for the AIs, which gives Hartley a temporary reprieve, but I'd like to think Eddie has George earmarked to take over as the starter for the 6 Nations 2018. If that's the case, I would drop him from the 23 to ensure that Cowan-Dickie or Taylor (or both) can gain some experience in the 'finisher' role. We can always recall him if needs be ...

We're lucky to have four very good hookers, but the drop-off from there to fifth choice is quite a big one IMO so unless there's an injury crisis, it's two or three of Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie and Taylor going to Japan.

Conclusion: No changes for the AIs. Changes for the 6N and beyond.

Lock:

No need for messing around here. Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes have booked their places and Ewels' performances definitely justify him being the next cab off of the rank.

I can't see Isiekwe getting enough game time with Saracens to be a realistic option by 2019 so I'd like to see us blood another reserve or two like Barrow or Symons as an insurance policy, but that's about it. Beaumont could be another outside option if he moves to lock on a full time basis and gets a bit nastier. David Ribbans at Saints would be my wildcard entry if he carries on how he started last season.

Conclusion: Itoje and Kruis rested for the AIs, but no real changes between now and 2019

Flanker:

This really depends on how brutal Eddie wants to be right now. Wilson, Underhill and Tom Curry performed well enough in Argentina for Haskell and Wood's places to be under serious threat, but I'm not sure he'd drop both straight away? Robshaw remains undroppable IMO, but I think Wilson impressed to the extent that he can establish himself as the reserve 6. In contrast, I'd say Underhill and both Ben and Tom Curry need to build upon their early promise in order to justify a place in the team, so I think Haskell stays for now with the youngsters being eased in to the team gradually.

Fringe players like Clifford, Harrison, Williams and Armand will be lucky to get another chance. Sam Jones may yet get an opportunity (we know Eddie would have picked him by now but for injury), but with the exception of Ben Curry, I don't see there being much chance of uncapped players getting a look-in. I don't like the idea, but my only wildcard entry is Michael Rhodes when he becomes eligible.

Conclusion: Wood out for Wilson. Haskell to hold on for now, but only until he passes the torch to Underhill/the Currys.

Number 8:

No need for changes here. Billy is the clear first choice and Hughes has started to look like a test player. I can see Eddie picking Mercer as a development project, but I don't see him getting involved in the immediate future unless injuries force his hand.

Clifford, Beaumont, Morgan etc. have almost 0 chance of disrupting the pecking order IMO.

Conclusion: No need for change. Barring inury, Billy and Hughes will be our 8s at the World Cup.

[bitts]

Pretty much agree, but with a few differences of opinion.

Think the Lions may have been Haskell's last hurrah. He's getting on and there are a few players snapping at his heals.

The first few weeks of the season could make a huge difference to the eventual make up of the squad. If Clifford, for example, has a stormer he could push himself back into contention as he would be a useful bench option. Similarly, if Mercer forces his way into the Bath team and puts in some big performances he could feature in the AIs. Although there may be a couple of Question marks around his game, he could be our version of Kieran Reed.

Is it greedy to want another ball carrying tight head? At the moment Sinclair will have to stay on the bench simply because he's the best impact sub.

Oh, and can we all pray for LCD to stay fit. He's a quality player and it will be great when we can field a bench with him, Genge, Sinkler, Genge, Lawes,Hughes, Care,Manu, May in.

[Banquo]

four 'very good' hookers is something of a stretch. Two are pretty unproven at test level, and one is clinging on. I understand the excitement on the back rows in Argentina, but Clifford being written off seems premature.

Also, whilst we have 4 top locks, to say no change til 2019 is optimistic- I note 'assume every is fit'- you/eddie really can't.

[Scrumhead]

Cowan-Dickie and Taylor may be inexperienced a test level but personally, I don't think it's a stretch to describe them as very good players. If Hartley and George were injured, I'd be comfortable enough with the other two deputising.

Re. The flankers, I said 'Fringe players like Clifford will be lucky to get another chance'. Some of those such as Harrison, I think we can fairly safely rule out, Clifford less so, but then he needs a consistent run of games to get back on the radar which seems to be a challenge for him recently (persistent problems with concussion).

I also said that I wanted us to 'blood another reserve (lock) or two like Barrow or Symons as an insurance policy' against injury. Lock is a particularly attritional position and having just five (including Ewels) probably isn't enough.

I'm assuming Kruis, Itoje and possibly Lawes will be rested for the AIs. If that's the case, the Lauch/Ewels combination from the Argentina tour should be retained, but we'd have an ideal opportunity to look at some back up options.

[Banquo]

Cowan-Dickie and Taylor may be inexperienced a test level but personally, I don't think it's a stretch to describe them as very good players. If Hartley and George were injured, I'd be comfortable enough with the other two deputising.

Re. The flankers, I said 'Fringe players like Clifford will be lucky to get another chance'. Some of those such as Harrison, I think we can fairly safely rule out, Clifford less so, but then he needs a consistent run of games to get back on the radar which seems to be a challenge for him recently (persistent problems with concussion).

I also said that I wanted us to 'blood another reserve (lock) or two like Barrow or Symons as an insurance policy' against injury. Lock is a particularly attritional position and having just five (including Ewels) probably isn't enough.

I'm assuming Kruis, Itoje and possibly Lawes will be rested for the AIs. If that's the case, the Lauch/Ewels combination from the Argentina tour should be retained, but we'd have an ideal opportunity to look at some back up options.

Good club players; sorry to be picky, but we too often seem surprised when players who are good for their clubs turn out to be not so much internationally- so I'd reserve judgement at intl level until we see them there and before calling them very good intls- might just be me

Not sure I'd bracket Clifford with the rest ('lucky to get another chance')- they are more tried and found wanting or aging; I wasn't aware of the concussion issue, I'd thought it was just normal physical knocks....so apols.

Fair enough on the locks, but thinking they will all be there in 2019 is ambitious tbh.

[Scrumhead]

Clifford is currently out with a shoulder injury. The concussion issue is more of a worry though. I think he had about 3 separate incidences of missing weeks due to head knocks last season.

[p/d]

Simmonds at Exter will blow the backrow apart, trust me.

[bitts]

Simmonds at Exter will blow the backrow apart, trust me.

Was really impressed with him last season. What's his story though? Late developer? Is he likely to break into the side next year?

[Timbo]

Based on what we've seen going on down in New Zealand this morning then I'd say full scale improvement from everybody across the board is what's needed. And serious fast tracking of any young players that Eddie thinks have got the potential to reach that sort of level - enough messing around with the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Wood.

Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Underhill, Mercer and Curry x 2 look to have that sort of potential to me.

[Banquo]

Based on what we've seen going on down in New Zealand this morning then I'd say full scale improvement from everybody across the board is what's needed. And serious fast tracking of any young players that Eddie thinks have got the potential to reach that sort of level - enough messing around with the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Wood.

Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Underhill, Mercer and Curry x 2 look to have that sort of potential to me.

Not sure we needed the Lions tour to tell us that, except to confirm there is a chunky gap between NZ and the rest, so measuring England's results/progress has to be in that context.....Eddie himself has said we need a lot more world class players; I'd say at least one in every unit bar lock.

[Scrumhead]

Simmonds at Exter will blow the backrow apart, trust me.

Was really impressed with him last season. What's his story though? Late developer? Is he likely to break into the side next year?

Likewise. He looks like an excellent prospect (I did mention him in the back row thread). My only concern with him is that he is probably too small to be a realistic option as a test 8. A lot will depend on where/how Exeter develop him.

[Banquo]

Simmonds at Exter will blow the backrow apart, trust me.

Was really impressed with him last season. What's his story though? Late developer? Is he likely to break into the side next year?

Likewise. He looks like an excellent prospect (I did mention him in the back row thread). My only concern with him is that he is probably too small to be a realistic option as a test 8. A lot will depend on where/how Exeter develop him.

Thought he was a 7 in the making?

[Timbo]

Based on what we've seen going on down in New Zealand this morning then I'd say full scale improvement from everybody across the board is what's needed. And serious fast tracking of any young players that Eddie thinks have got the potential to reach that sort of level - enough messing around with the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Wood.

Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Underhill, Mercer and Curry x 2 look to have that sort of potential to me.

Not sure we needed the Lions tour to tell us that, except to confirm there is a chunky gap between NZ and the rest, so measuring England's results/progress has to be in that context.....Eddie himself has said we need a lot more world class players; I'd say at least one in every unit bar lock.

Not needed I guess, no. But given we haven't played them for 3(?) years it's a revealing measuring stick. There's no flys on Eddie and I'm sure he's watching with interest.

At lock it'll be interesting to see how our 3 second row Lions move on from the tour. Genuine top class players who stand out against everyone else...but are still seemingly some way short of competing with Retallick on an even footing.

[Banquo]

Based on what we've seen going on down in New Zealand this morning then I'd say full scale improvement from everybody across the board is what's needed. And serious fast tracking of any young players that Eddie thinks have got the potential to reach that sort of level - enough messing around with the likes of Haskell, Hartley and Wood.

Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Underhill, Mercer and Curry x 2 look to have that sort of potential to me.

Not sure we needed the Lions tour to tell us that, except to confirm there is a chunky gap between NZ and the rest, so measuring England's results/progress has to be in that context.....Eddie himself has said we need a lot more world class players; I'd say at least one in every unit bar lock.

Not needed I guess, no. But given we haven't played them for 3(?) years it's a revealing measuring stick. There's no flys on Eddie and I'm sure he's watching with interest.

At lock it'll be interesting to see how our 3 second row Lions move on from the tour. Genuine top class players who stand out against everyone else...but are still seemingly some way short of competing with Retallick on an even footing.

Bit harsh on the locks (one didnt play, Itoje was decent, Kruis was ermmm mixed) and Retallick is a freak,,,,and even that didnt help his lineout; however, you are right about loose impact.

Shorthand- yes, be great to have a Retallick

[kk67]

Retalllick is a nightmare. I'm not changing that shit for any twat.
Launch...... maybe

[Scrumhead]

Was really impressed with him last season. What's his story though? Late developer? Is he likely to break into the side next year?

Likewise. He looks like an excellent prospect (I did mention him in the back row thread). My only concern with him is that he is probably too small to be a realistic option as a test 8. A lot will depend on where/how Exeter develop him.

Thought he was a 7 in the making?

He should be a '7 in the making' (watching him play reminds me of Michael Hooper) but AFAIK, all his appearances for Exeter have been at 8 so far. Since they've signed Kvesic for next season and also need to start phasing Waldrom out of the side, it looks like he'll stay at 8 for the foreseeable future.

[Oakboy]

Bit harsh on the locks (one didnt play, Itoje was decent, Kruis was ermmm mixed) and Retallick is a freak,,,,and even that didnt help his lineout; however, you are right about loose impact.

Shorthand- yes, be great to have a Retallick

I have always considered that Kruis is over-rated. He's a good, solid player but not as good as some make out.

[Timbo]

I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

[Scrumhead]

Absolutely Timbo.

IMO Kruis is excellent at the basics and a genuine lineout strategist. That's a top class combination.

Retallick is just a freak. If I were picking the top 5 locks in world rugby, I'd have him as number 1 and then daylight to the next four (probably Itoje, Launchbury, Whitelock and Kruis).

[Digby]

I think I'd have Whitelock close to Retallick. After all if Kruis gets extra credit for running the lineout why not Whitelock?

Actually for a good few years I had Whitelock ahead of Retallick. Less flash stuff from Sam, but performs consistently at a high level with a stupidly low error rate. Sam's take in the 24th or 25th minute, when George prangs his should trying to tackle Whitelock is exceptional given Aaron Smith does Sam no favours whatsoever with his pass, but the ball is taken, contact is taken, and the ball is recycled - and a mistake there could've been very costly.

Probably Retallick is edging Whitelock now though given the number and quality of his contributions in the loose. Maybe I'd have Sam as the better lock, and Brodie as the better player.

[Banquo]

I think I'd have Whitelock close to Retallick. After all if Kruis gets extra credit for running the lineout why not Whitelock?

Actually for a good few years I had Whitelock ahead of Retallick. Less flash stuff from Sam, but performs consistently at a high level with a stupidly low error rate. Sam's take in the 24th or 25th minute, when George prangs his should trying to tackle Whitelock is exceptional given Aaron Smith does Sam no favours whatsoever with his pass, but the ball is taken, contact is taken, and the ball is recycled - and a mistake there could've been very costly.

Probably Retallick is edging Whitelock now though given the number and quality of his contributions in the loose. Maybe I'd have Sam as the better lock, and Brodie as the better player.

demerit for whitelock yesterday then...

[Digby]

I think I'd have Whitelock close to Retallick. After all if Kruis gets extra credit for running the lineout why not Whitelock?

Actually for a good few years I had Whitelock ahead of Retallick. Less flash stuff from Sam, but performs consistently at a high level with a stupidly low error rate. Sam's take in the 24th or 25th minute, when George prangs his should trying to tackle Whitelock is exceptional given Aaron Smith does Sam no favours whatsoever with his pass, but the ball is taken, contact is taken, and the ball is recycled - and a mistake there could've been very costly.

Probably Retallick is edging Whitelock now though given the number and quality of his contributions in the loose. Maybe I'd have Sam as the better lock, and Brodie as the better player.

demerit for whitelock yesterday then...

blame it on the hooker

[jngf]

I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

For me Kruis is Borthwick 2.0 good in scrum and lineout, very underpowered as a carrier in the loose.

[Scrumhead]

I feel that people who say Kruis is overrated massively underrate the importance of a quality lineout and how good Kruis is in that area.

For me Kruis is Borthwick 2.0 good in scrum and lineout, very underpowered as a carrier in the loose.

Oh come on! You must think I am a contrarian bastard who disagrees with you all the time, but sometimes I wonder if we watch a different sport!

No-one is claiming Kruis is a superb carrier, but I wouldn't say he's noticeably bad at all. Certainly a huge amount better than Borthwick.

[Oakboy]

No-one is claiming Kruis is a superb carrier, but I wouldn't say he's noticeably bad at all. Certainly a huge amount better than Borthwick.

I agree with that. Kruis is a significantly better all-round player than Borthwick. However, I stick to what I said earlier. Kruis is good but not as good as some claim. I think he will get found out against the very best whereas our other three, Itoje, Lawes and Launchbury, won't. That does not mean they are world-beaters, just that any pairing of the three, as a unit, will not be cowed by anybody, IMO.